T/C Flintlocks - Old vs New?

[centershot]

I spent some time this week with some friends at their new log cabin on their old family homestead in central Pennsylvania. Beautiful rolling hills, heavily forested, lots of deer and turkeys, 200+ acres all to themselves, I can see why they like it there. In the course of conversation I asked Charlie why he never took up muzzle loading, as much as he enjoys hunting (and eating) whitetails. He replied that he had one, but it was just too much messing around to go out and try to hunt with it, he said he hadn't even shot it for some years. "What make is it", said I. "I'm not sure, it's a flintlock, a Renegade maybe, is that a name you recognize?" he said. "Oh Boy, I smell another Renegade coming home with me" I thought to myself. So, yes, I'm going to buy it, he needs to figure out what he wants for it. OK, that's fine. This will be the 2nd flinter that I've owned, the first being a .54 Renegade that I bought new back around 1990. That was one cantancarous rifle, let me tell you! It fired when it wanted to, never mind when I wanted it too. Pull the trigger and it was a manure shoot as to whether it was a "Bang" or a "Pfffffft"! Well, thanks to this forum I know a bit more about flintlocks today than I did then.

I understand that T/C had two generations of locks on their flinters, the second being a more reliable lock due to the revised geometry. What I really need to know is how to tell one from the other, and, is there anything that can be done to improve reliability of the first generation locks. Pictures would be helpful!

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

There are pictures in the archives here of just that use the search feature

 

[11th corps]

Yup. I even use (shudder) WD-40...

I spent some time this week with some friends at their new log cabin on their old family homestead in central Pennsylvania. Beautiful rolling hills, heavily forested, lots of deer and turkeys, 200+ acres all to themselves, I can see why they like it there. In the course of conversation I asked Charlie why he never took up muzzle loading, as much as he enjoys hunting (and eating) whitetails. He replied that he had one, but it was just too much messing around to go out and try to hunt with it, he said he hadn't even shot it for some years. "What make is it", said I. "I'm not sure, it's a flintlock, a Renegade maybe, is that a name you recognize?" he said. "Oh Boy, I smell another Renegade coming home with me" I thought to myself. So, yes, I'm going to buy it, he needs to figure out what he wants for it. OK, that's fine. This will be the 2nd flinter that I've owned, the first being a .54 Renegade that I bought new back around 1990. That was one cantancarous rifle, let me tell you! It fired when it wanted to, never mind when I wanted it too. Pull the trigger and it was a manure shoot as to whether it was a "Bang" or a "Pfffffft"! Well, thanks to this forum I know a bit more about flintlocks today than I did then.

I understand that T/C had two generations of locks on their flinters, the second being a more reliable lock due to the revised geometry. What I really need to know is how to tell one from the other, and, is there anything that can be done to improve reliability of the first generation locks. Pictures would be helpful!

One issue I had with my T/C flintlock Hawken when I first got it-my first flint rifle-I was loading too much powder in the pan. You need to keep an air space between the pan powder and the touch hole so the powder can flash over into the main charge. Otherwise if you have powder up against the touch hole you will get the fuse effect.

 

[Muddly]

The newer locks had UGLY cocks ( hammers)!
Change the geometry? OK. Could've made them look better though...
Just sayin'.
My old locks work just fine. Have 4 and no complaints.

 

[Eric Krewson]

 

[waarp8nt]

What I really need to know is how to tell one from the other, and, is there anything that can be done to improve reliability of the first generation locks. Pictures would be helpful!

I've had mixed results with early T/C locks.

One thing I've done to improve my old Thompson lock was to replace it with a Interarms flintlock (Interarms made Lyman rifles until recently). I found the lock new Interarms / Lyman on eBay for $60 shipped. I only had to open up the lock mortise in the front ever so slightly to get it to fit, I've heard others say it leaves too much of a gap on the bottom, but mine is no more open than a factory inlet lock.

The Gun Works Emporium purchased the last of the T/C parts from S&W. Many folks consider the Lyman frizzen an upgrade and the T/C improved hammer an upgrade. The Gunworks carries both, might be worth trying them both as uprgrades to the original T/C lock. I have purchased a few Lyman Frizzens as replacement since T/C frizzens can be hard to come by, but have yet needed to replace a frizzen.

L&R makes a replacement lock, I have one but have yet to install it. Some folks claim it takes a fair amount of wood removal in the lock mortise to get it to work properly. Again, I have yet to install mine.

 

[Timber Wolf]

I have the old style cock on my PA Hunter and it works fine, but with a real flint and not the sawn abomination that came with it. I guess it works because I got it and enjoyed it before I found out the “old” style cocks were not supposed to be any good. Of course I don’t have any trouble with the new CCI Musket Caps that everybody knows are weak so maybe I am just lucky. ; )

 

[BigAl52]

Since you have had experience with one to begin with maybe his messin around was describing the loading and priming. Take it to the range when you get it and try it out. Maybe there wont be the issues you had with the other one. Even if its the older one with a bad rap.

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Sounds to me that if you have a Old or New TC flintlock and it works like you like, you're good to go.
Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Flint Striker]

I had an old style Renegade - traded a bow for it about fifteen years ago. It did require a replacement frizzen when I got it, but it shot fine with a knapped flint after that. I think I did position the flint with the bevel facing down.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

View attachment 165967

Interesting, the new style seems to be about 1/10" longer from the center of the square mounting hole to the base of the flint clamp.

I have the old style and I did notice that the wear mark in the frizzen is about midway on the frizzen face. I'm very green to flinters but thanks to this group here I'm learning. It does seem more desireable to have the flint making first contact a bit higher on the frizzen. Or am I mistaken?

 

[SDSmlf]

OP needs to understand what ‘Charlie’s’ problems with the gun were. The newer cock will improve flint life and spark a bit better, but it’s not going to fix all the problems someone may be having. Imagine oil in the bore, or using Pyrodex instead of blackpowder for example. Or the grief one may have with sawn ‘flints’. Maybe the gun was never cleaned properly. Who knows why ‘Charlie’ found the gun to require too much messing around with to take hunting. Probably best to start by asking ‘Charlie’ what the too much messing around with was all about.

 

[Scota@4570]

I got a TC Hawken flint in 1975. The lock was terrible. It ate flints, was horribly unreliable and had only a thin case harden on the frizzen. The case hardening wore though quickly and then no sparks at all. ...Pure junk. It almost soured me on muzzle loading. I gave up on it and converted it to percussion.

Years later I installed a replacement lock from L&R. That was a larger can of worms than I imagined. Once done it works well enough. I also replaced the barrel. The important parts are not TC any more.

So, my point? IF you are going to get an old first style TC flintlock, expect problems and pay accordingly.

 

[Flint Striker]

Interesting, the new style seems to be about 1/10" longer from the center of the square mounting hole to the base of the flint clamp.

I have the old style and I did notice that the wear mark in the frizzen is about midway on the frizzen face. I'm very green to flinters but thanks to this group here I'm learning. It does seem more desireable to have the flint making first contact a bit higher on the frizzen. Or am I mistaken?

I’m not as experienced as most here, but I’ve had the best spark and more even wear on the frizzen with the flint striking around 1/3 down from the top. Some guns like the flint bevel up, others work better with it facing down.

 

[TDM]

Wood removal will definitely be required, but the L&R RPL lock, once tuned, does a fine job.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

I will say that when I took my PA Hunter flinter to the range for the first time I only had ignition trouble with the first shot. FTR I was using genuine black powder, 2F in the barrel and 4F in the pan. I dropped the cock twice just before loading and priming to test for spark and it sparked both times. When I loaded it I had three klatches, after the third I wiped the frizzen and the edge of the flint with my finger and the shot went. The subsequent shots went off just fine as well. This is with the machine cut "flint" which I intend to replace once TOTW gets the English flints in the size I need back in stock.

Caveat: this was my first and so far only experience with a flint lock so don't take my story as some kind of gospel on the effectiveness of the old style TC lock. I'm well pleased thus far and look forward to possibly making it perform a bit better

 

[Scota@4570]

Wood removal will definitely be required, but the L&R RPL lock, once tuned, does a fine job.

On mine the lock mounting screw location for the TC lock would not work. I ended up making a custom bridle screw. One side of the bridle screw was a bridle screw, the other side was a nut for the lock bolt to fit into. I then had to make a side plate to cover the modifications.

I have not read up on the original TC locks lately. I seem to remember that the angle the flint struck the frizzen was wrong. This is real important. For instance, the Kibler SMR lock is amazing. Jim got these details just right. I can shoot about 100 shots with the same flint in my SMRs. I almost never have a misfire, maybe 1 in 50 and only when the flint need knapping. I don't fuss over wiping the frizzen or picking vents.

I suspect that TC just did not know what they were doing. They apparently did not consult people who understood how to make flintlock. It seems to me they could have examined the geometry of a really nice original English lock and gotten it right. They apparently did not bother.

This was early in the ML resurgence. Even so, their cap guns are-were pretty good for what they are. I got my first ML buck with my TC Hawken flint lock. IT took three tries to get ignition. I still remember every detail. That was 1976, I was 14 YO.