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Swamped vs Straight barrels

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I have researched in the archives but was unsuccessful or not found it.
I have heard from a couple builders that using a swamped barrel will not be as accurate due to bullet harmonics when fired through the barrel because of the shape and the material removed from the barrel.
True or not?????
Would be interested in other peoples views and any truths to this opinion.
Thank you.
 
Mate, I have two long rifles of similar calibre, one a 40 inch straight Douglas barrel, it is a tack driver, my other long rifle has a 44 inch swamped Collerain barrel and it also is a tack driver. I prefer the balance of the latter with the swamped barrel. Ver fast handling, considering the barrel length.

Cheers

Heelerau
 
Did "these builders" suggest such because inletting a swamped barrel was a little beyond their capabilities or too much work??

Building to optimize Barrel harmonics is a whole different beast that is best reserved for competitive shooters that are having rifles built that cost more than a new vehicle.

If you want to significantly improve the harmonic balance of a muzzleloading rifle you should simply shoot it with the ramrod removed (according to Doc White).

While it is true that a heavier barrel will be less prone to vibration than a lighter barrel AND removal of metal in a swamp pattern does lighten that particular barrel (from it's original "straight" profile), the difference is that most swamped barrels tend to be longer than straight barrels (in application) because a straight barrel of the same length would be difficult to handle due to the weight out front.

So ultimately if you could handle a 42" straight barrel in say 40 caliber with 1" flats then it absolutely would be less prone to vibration (harmonic effects) then say an A-wt swamped 42" barrel.

But your accuracy would probably suck unless you were shooting that rifle fully supported or had arms like Popeye.

In practice you might use a 36" 40 cal 13/16" ATF barrel to make a small cal rifle. The barrel would weight 4 lbs 9 oz. In comparison a 42" A-wt 40 cal weighs 4 lbs 6 oz. Hardly a "huge" difference - plus the longer barrel will absorb more of the vibration thus reducing the harmonic wave peaks.

Also, if you are shooting a round ball it has the smallest "bearing surface" against the barrel of just about any projectile = less friction = less vibration.

Plus, with black powder or it's subs you are shooting at significantly lower pressures than you would with a CF rifle - both of which drastically reduce vibration (in comparison to a CF) in the first place.

Additionally, your BP rifle barrel is usually quite a bit heavier than a CF barrel, so yet again another reason not to be overly concerned with harmonics in a BP rifle.

I'm not saying you can't affect or optimize it, it's just usually not worth the bother to try and build the rifle that way.

(bed the breech some say - free float the barrel - move the first key at least 14" forward of the breech - bed the entire stock so it has less propensity to warp (which flies in the face of those that say a free floating barrel is better)

You need only alter patch material or a few grains of powder either way (which is what everyone does who "works up a load" does).

When they find that "sweet spot" they have most likely simply found the point where the vibration (or harmonic wave) has come to the same point upon the ball exiting the muzzle as when the ball started out - they are in line and it shoots straight.

If you are an elite competitive shooter or plan to be then I apologize if my answer sounds condescending (we could go into details of minimizing harmonic effects but it would take pages).

If you are simply looking for answers in anticipation of having an accurate rifle built - or at least as accurate as feasible, forget the harmonics and buy a Rice barrel - they are stress relieved in a furnace after machine work is done (why is part of the reason for the premium price).

That procedure alone will do more to keep your roundball straight that than any other trial/error building methods (which is the best you can do with a one-off rifle).
 
When it comes to offhand shooting, I prefer the balance of a straight taper barrel rather than swamped.

Whether there is a slight difference in accuracy over a thousand shots from the bench, may be. You will never know if you shoot offhand because they can both be more accurate than the operator.
 
I have never owned or built a swap barreled gun,the thought of it scares me. Have seen more then one, and they are streight shooters. They are light,hang well and are easy on the eyes.
 
tenngun said:
I have never owned or built a swap barreled gun, the thought of it scares me. Have seen more then one, and they are straight shooters. They are light, hang well and are easy on the eyes.

Galamb has the best idea on how to inlet a swamped barrel I have ever seen. Its hard to describe so maybe He would do us a favor of posting some pictures or give us a link. I believe the barrel he shows is a 42 inch swamped barrel.
 
Last week, a friend of mine was at our shooting range with an Italian long rifle, with a straight barrel. I had brought my swamped barrel Virginia, rifle. He could not get over how good the swamped barrel felt. He shoots a lot off hand, and is an excellent shooter, but he was so surprised at how my rifle balanced and pointed. Just from the handling characteristics alone, the swamped barrel would shoot better, even if the straight barrel shot better off the bench. A lot of factors go in to, what makes a rifle accurate.

I don't know about the accuracy of his rifle, on that day, due to his FTF's and sight problems that he was having. But my rifle, was putting on a show, and I think he left, a little frustrated.
 
Way back when, there were articles in Muzzle Blasts on just this subject. As I recall, and what I have come to accept as true, is that the swamping, especially old soft iron barrels, is the shape absorbs and reduces harmonic vibrations much better than straight. The swamping, of course, also reduces weight and gives a properly made rifle that wonderful feel and balance in the hands. Not asked, but it also lends a grace and beauty to the eye when looked at.
 
Yep, BS. For off hand target shooting I much prefer a straight barrel. For general use and hunting there is nothing like a swamped barrel. If I ever get another rifle it will have a swamped barrel.
 
tenngun said:
Have seen more then one, and they are streight shooters. They are light,hang well and are easy on the eyes.

Agree 100%. And that is based on owning MLs with straight barrels and MLs with swamped barrels. Love the swamp barrels for aesthetics, offhand shooting, AND carrying in the woods.
 
Oh, I don't know. Chunk rifles are super accurate with their 15 to 25 pound straight barrels. I'd say they were more accurate from a sturdy bench than any swamped barrel fired from a standing offhand position.

But when I have to carry it for a day . . . ;-)
 
I am no mechanical engineer, but spent a career building/working/tweaking/improving NM and sniper rifles, so my experience with barrel harmonics is from the practical side of shooting and testing. This is another area where modern and muzzleloading rifles have much in common.

Over 23 years in that game, we "heard it all" about fluted barrels causing the barrel harmonics to improve and make the barrels more accurate than heavy round barrels. Can't tell you how many different fluted barrels we tried and tested in our super expensive test racks and found it meant nothing to improving accuracy outside of some people THINKING it made the barrels shoot better and gave them more confidence, so they shot better with them. IF fluted barrels were such an accuracy enhancement modification, then EVERYONE in bench resting and high power long range competition of many kinds and sniping would have used them for many years and no heavy round barrels would have been used.

Now modern cartridges produce much higher pressures than does black powder and most, if not all of the black powder substitutes. (I put a qualifier in there because I have not tested every kind of black powder substitute, but if the pressure was much higher than black powder, it would play Heck with percussion nipples and hammers.) You still get the effect of barrel harmonics with black powder guns, but it is not as much as with modern cartridges that have higher pressures.

Oh, the problem mentioned about loosening an action screw on a modern gun supposedly causing a barrel harmonics problem is not an accurate depiction of what is happening. The reason the rifle shoots larger or poorer groups when an action screw is loosened is that the BEDDING of the receiver is not as tight and the receiver "moves" more in the bedding that causes poorer groups.

What can be or is bad about barrel harmonics is when there is or are negative nodes of vibration that act against the wave flow of vibrations down the barrel. To get an idea of a negative node of vibration, imagine throwing a good sized rock into a pond that is calm and smooth. Waves emanate outward from the point the rock splashed into the water. This is sort of like normal barrel vibrations where the waves flow somewhat to very equally down the barrel. However, when the waves in the pond hit something like the post of a dock, you see smaller waves rebounding/bouncing off the dock post and against the larger waves made by the rock. That is a negative node of vibration that upsets the normal and somewhat smooth flow of vibrations down the barrel. How much of a disrupting influence the negative node/s of vibration are to the normal flow of vibrations in a barrel, the more it will hurt accuracy.

OK, so what sets up negative nodes of vibration in a muzzleloading barrel? Normally it could be or is the barrel retaining pins or keys if those pins or keys put a lot of pressure on the barrel in just those spots. However, most pins and keys do not put a lot of pressure on the barrel so the negative nodes are not as disrupting to barrel harmonics. Actually, a wood fore arm of a stock that was not well seasoned when the rifle was assembled, could cause more pressure from the forearm twisting as the stock dries out and set up a worse node of vibration than almost any pin or key could do.

One thing that NM shooters learned about M1903 rifles was it was normally GOOD to have four to six pounds of pressure applied to the barrel by the very front of the wood stock. That pressure actually slightly bent the barrel. It helped the barrel settle back into the same position shot after shot with the relatively thinner G.I. contour barrels. However, with larger and thicker round barrels and glass bedding, it was found it hurt accuracy to have that pressure on the barrel from the front of the stock.

Are any of you are old enough to remember Model 40X .22 cal. "Match" rifles that had two adjustment screws near the front of the stock to put pressure on the barrels to supposedly increase accuracy? We tuned them using tuning forks and it was almost as much "magic" or wishful thinking than anything else. Then after more testing, it was found those rifles were more accurate when those adjustment screws did not touch the barrel at all.

Bottom line for muzzleloaders is the super heavy "Chunk" guns with the enormous barrels and "railroad tie" stocks are the most accurate muzzleloaders with round balls. Part of the reason that Hawken and Plains rifles were so accurate was because of their heavier barrels that allowed more harmonious vibrations in the barrel. When one gets down to Longrifle barrels and only shooting at 100 to 200 yards, there is so little difference in barrel harmonics between a swamped vs straight barrel, it really means nothing to most of us.

Gus
 

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