Eutycus
Cannon
The box of Hornadys that I currently using say they are made from PURE lead. Wouldn't that be false advertising if they weren't?
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Swaged vs molded
- Thread starter mudcreek
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curator
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Artificer is right on the swaged balls becoming less consistent over the years. About 20 years ago I had an opportunity to tour the Hornady facility in Grand Island Nebraska. I saw their swaging equipment which was quite impressive. Round balls were swaged from different sizes of lead wire which was cut to an exact length. Excess lead is vented from a "bleed hole" in the dies so that the shape is maintained. Great attention was paid to making certain that there was no "waste." This necessitates that the section of lead wire be slightly less than what it takes to 100% fill the die.To be sure, their technicians work hard to insure high quality but some balls are made with an occasional air pocket or are slightly out of round. However, their lead source is very consistent, much more so than the average home caster.
Judging from the quality of home-cast round balls I see at black powder shoots, commercial round balls are vastly superior. A serious knowledgeable caster can make better round balls than one can buy with attention to alloy, casting temperature, technique, and careful inspection. A home-cast round ball will usually have any void or imperfection directly under the sprue (unlike swaged balls where it may be anywhere inside) Centering the sprue when loading will make certain that the ball will rotate around the imperfection negating its effect on accuracy. Therein lies the advantage of home-cast over commercial swaged round balls.
Judging from the quality of home-cast round balls I see at black powder shoots, commercial round balls are vastly superior. A serious knowledgeable caster can make better round balls than one can buy with attention to alloy, casting temperature, technique, and careful inspection. A home-cast round ball will usually have any void or imperfection directly under the sprue (unlike swaged balls where it may be anywhere inside) Centering the sprue when loading will make certain that the ball will rotate around the imperfection negating its effect on accuracy. Therein lies the advantage of home-cast over commercial swaged round balls.
I have no doubt Hornady uses pure lead. But it's the manufacturing process that makes them harder than a cast ball made of the softest pure lead. I can cut a Hornady, or Speer, swaged ball with a fingernail. But it takes more effort and the groove is shallower than with a lead cast ball.
Another thing I don't like is that occasionally a swaged ball will come apart into several lead shards. I have seen photo's of some of those balls right here on this forum. Until then I'd have thought that was impossible. I'd hate to shoot a deer with one of those round balls.
Pure lead does not work harden so the process of forming swaged balls can not harden it.
I'm no metalurogist (SP) perhaps they use a pure lead that's harder than what we used 30 years ago. I've got no idea. But I've been hunting with prb's since 1976 and I know that a cast ball from the purest, softest lead will expand more inside a deer than a swaged one will.
My suggestion is to use what your most comfortable with and not worry about it or the mechanics of it. That's what I'll be doing.
My suggestion is to use what your most comfortable with and not worry about it or the mechanics of it. That's what I'll be doing.
I shoot both and check them for weight and consistency I find Hornady and Speer balls to be to be very consistent. When I weigh I use an electronic scale and stay within half a grain on weight for my .315 balls then remelt anything outside of that. My casting is getting better and I use the same system of weighing and inspecting. Both types shoot well out of my guns but shooting my own cast balls provides some extra pleasure.
The last 2 or 3 boxes of Hornady I bought were nothing to brag about. A lot of them had wrinkles and overlaps in them.
The ones I have been shooting are new old stock that I got from an older gentleman who had quit shooting and were in older boxes. I have five boxes that I found on sale recently that are in the new style boxes. When I get home from vacation I will open a couple of the boxes and check them out and compare them against the older ones. Hopefully they will be the same quality but if not I will melt and recast.
Interesting read Gents, several comments that I have questions about....
One concerning the “hardness of swagged balls” Darkhorse mentioned.
I agree with what he’s saying, it seems too me that swagged balls are “harder” or don’t seem too scratch as easily as poured round balls with a fingernail....
Is it possible that “swagged balls” become harder caused by compression?
The other question that was brought too mind was...
Weren’t “swagged balls” molten at some point before being “swagged”?
If so I can see no difference in the two.....
other than the perceived hardness issue.
I have shot both swagged and poured round balls and can see no difference in their performances on paper, but as Darkhorse pointed out the swagged balls do seem too penetrate a deer without as much deformation when recovered.
Which in turn leads to less of a blood trail as mentioned .
Stan’s comments on the sprue left from casting or lack there of and its orientation , I found interesting as well.
Sprue up? Sprue down?
Does it really matter?
I’ve shot both ways , on paper I can’t see that it matters..... out of a riffled gun.
In a smoothbore , the juries still out in my book...without the spin imparted by the rifling I can see how there could possibly be and influence in the trajectory caused by the sprue.
Would it not tend too preform like a “knuckleball”?
One concerning the “hardness of swagged balls” Darkhorse mentioned.
I agree with what he’s saying, it seems too me that swagged balls are “harder” or don’t seem too scratch as easily as poured round balls with a fingernail....
Is it possible that “swagged balls” become harder caused by compression?
The other question that was brought too mind was...
Weren’t “swagged balls” molten at some point before being “swagged”?
If so I can see no difference in the two.....
other than the perceived hardness issue.
I have shot both swagged and poured round balls and can see no difference in their performances on paper, but as Darkhorse pointed out the swagged balls do seem too penetrate a deer without as much deformation when recovered.
Which in turn leads to less of a blood trail as mentioned .
Stan’s comments on the sprue left from casting or lack there of and its orientation , I found interesting as well.
Sprue up? Sprue down?
Does it really matter?
I’ve shot both ways , on paper I can’t see that it matters..... out of a riffled gun.
In a smoothbore , the juries still out in my book...without the spin imparted by the rifling I can see how there could possibly be and influence in the trajectory caused by the sprue.
Would it not tend too preform like a “knuckleball”?
Does it need too be centered?
That was why I said , out of a riffled gun I could see no difference.
The balls I shot , I’m certain were off center some, still I could see no difference in accuracy.
Most of my shooting is at 50 yards or less however.
That was why I said , out of a riffled gun I could see no difference.
The balls I shot , I’m certain were off center some, still I could see no difference in accuracy.
Most of my shooting is at 50 yards or less however.
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Hornady is a top-quality, major manufacturer. Whatever they say about something, you can take to the bank, or the trading post if you prefer...
I think the swaged balls are harder or denser (if denser is possible without added weight) because they are formed from cold lead under a tremendous amount of pressure, sorta like "dark holes" are formed, which causes some change in the molecular makeup of the lead. Perhaps causing them to cling more to adjacent molecules. Just guessing here. I have never heard they are formed from molten lead.
Well I compared the old and new balls today and the new balls did not have any obvious defects they were consistently 1 grain heavier than the old stock balls. Newer averaged 48.1 and old stock averaged 47.2 so something has changed possibly updated equipment. I weighed a bunch of my cast balls today and started working a load up or them they are a little bigger diameter than the cast and I got a pretty good group using a .010 patch and 15 grains of Swiss. I shot quite a few cast and swaged out of all 3 of my cherokees and out of 60 rounds fired at 30 yards only had one obvious flyer and it was a cast ball. Nothing earth shattering but a real fun day of experimenting.
Darkhorse , I'm with you Brother!
But I think I fell into one of those “dark holes” . Lol
It almost seems as if there’s a hard coating on the swagged balls , until there beat around some.
Feels like Polished Zinc... almost.
Do you think the may use some type release agent on the mold/ press?
It kinda’ reminds me of mill scale on new steel... only not that hard.
Bassdog good report ! Thanks for taking the time to weigh the balls.
It’s sounds like you had a great day of shooting!
But I think I fell into one of those “dark holes” . Lol
It almost seems as if there’s a hard coating on the swagged balls , until there beat around some.
Feels like Polished Zinc... almost.
Do you think the may use some type release agent on the mold/ press?
It kinda’ reminds me of mill scale on new steel... only not that hard.
Bassdog good report ! Thanks for taking the time to weigh the balls.
It’s sounds like you had a great day of shooting!
Griz44Mag
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If you are following the Dutch method, you would be weighing all your balls and grouping/rejecting any light ones.
I have found the swagged balls to be slightly larger (and thus slightly heavier) than the balls I cast.
Take a close look at the swagged balls, the surface is not round, smooth and shiny like cast balls.
Run them through the round ball calculator and there seems to be no difference in the density of the material.
Some cast balls have a slightly protruding sprue, to be fair in the comparison, file any protruding sprue off the ball before weighing.
Another note, since lead content can vary even among lead that is stated as "pure" (which it is not) density may vary anyway.
I have found the swagged balls to be slightly larger (and thus slightly heavier) than the balls I cast.
Take a close look at the swagged balls, the surface is not round, smooth and shiny like cast balls.
Run them through the round ball calculator and there seems to be no difference in the density of the material.
Some cast balls have a slightly protruding sprue, to be fair in the comparison, file any protruding sprue off the ball before weighing.
Another note, since lead content can vary even among lead that is stated as "pure" (which it is not) density may vary anyway.
Griz44Mag
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Lead at 99.7% (+) is considered by the industry manufacturers as "pure"
Most advertise their products as 99.9% To correctly answer the question, no, they are not laboratory "pure".
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I occasionally come across boxes of Hornady swaged balls at auctions; last time, the bidding raised the cost to the same as retail price, which shows that other people dig 'em, too! Swap meets, gun shows, that sort of thing always has interesting things hanging around.
I shoot Hornady products across the board, meaning from round balls to bullet's, dies, gauges etc. And mostly I dig them to. But I don't dig the roundball for hunting and I also think they are harder to start than a cast ball.
Any manufacturer can have production problems. I have some Hornady brass sitting on the shelf because they are so hard it's almost impossible to cut the burr from the flash hole. I've shot some of my best groups and made my longest shots with Hornady bullets. I'm just telling it like it is based on my first buck shot in 1976 with a cast ball and many others shot with both cast and swaged balls.
Back then I cast not only round balls but pistol bullets also. I had a source for the purest of lead meaning the balls started easy and were very easy to scratch with a fingernail. A deer shot through the heart/lung area ran only short distances while leaving copius blood trails. But lately using swaged balls and shooting a deer in the same spot they leave a trail of little drops while running up to a hundred yards or more.
Maybe the quality of the lead I used is what makes the difference?
And maybe the hunter of today simply has not shot enough deer with both cast and swaged balls to draw an experienced opinion.
SMO is the only round ball hunter I know that has shot the number of deer required to form an objective opinion. He has a couple of real honey holes where he spends his November days.
Any manufacturer can have production problems. I have some Hornady brass sitting on the shelf because they are so hard it's almost impossible to cut the burr from the flash hole. I've shot some of my best groups and made my longest shots with Hornady bullets. I'm just telling it like it is based on my first buck shot in 1976 with a cast ball and many others shot with both cast and swaged balls.
Back then I cast not only round balls but pistol bullets also. I had a source for the purest of lead meaning the balls started easy and were very easy to scratch with a fingernail. A deer shot through the heart/lung area ran only short distances while leaving copius blood trails. But lately using swaged balls and shooting a deer in the same spot they leave a trail of little drops while running up to a hundred yards or more.
Maybe the quality of the lead I used is what makes the difference?
And maybe the hunter of today simply has not shot enough deer with both cast and swaged balls to draw an experienced opinion.
SMO is the only round ball hunter I know that has shot the number of deer required to form an objective opinion. He has a couple of real honey holes where he spends his November days.
Eutycus
Cannon
Didn't Hornady used to put out a swaged ball with no wrinkles at all? When did this change? Is there a lot number or year of manufacture that marks the difference in quality? I must be buying stuff off the shelf that has a little age to it, they seem like a pretty good product to me.
