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Sugar Loaf Twists

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The sugar loaf bullets that Ned Roberts speaks of as becoming so popular with hunters in the 1840's and '50's, I never found where he speaks to the rifling twists being used. Any of you guys found such a mention addressing the rifles?
 
Slow twist mongers hate the only reference that has crossed my path, and it's about the bullets rather than the rifles. There's an account of elongate bullets being used in a Hawken out of Taos in 1832 or 1834, if my date memory is worth a darned. And the bullet was described as twice as long as the caliber. Since all Hawken rifles I know of were 1:48, as were most rifles of the day, maybe that's a coincidence worth studying.

In modern terms, talk of sugar loaf bullets reminds me of the Ballettes that used to be around. Those were roughly 2x caliber and shot fine in almost any twist. If the similarity holds true, I'd guess the sugar loafs didn't require a special twist and grew popular cuzz they could be shot with good results from almost any old gun.

All speculation, but with a wee bit of foundation.
 
Haven't had time to do any more reading to come up with twists that may have been used. BrownBear, do you by chance recommember any mention of caliber? Just curious.

Thinking about this, can't help but wonder if that 1840's popularity of elongated bullets in rifles blossomed into the envelope pushing concept behind Walker revolvers, their being designed for 32 to the pound (thereabouts 218 grain) bullets.
 
GoodCheer said:
BrownBear, do you by chance recommember any mention of caliber?

Boy, I'd be stretching the memory gland beyond belief if I said this with certainty cuzz I haven't read the source in a couple of years. But I really want to say it was 53 caliber. Now all I have to do is borrow my own book back from the friend who borrowed it! :haha:
 
Chapman in his 'Improved American Rifle' (1848) describes a target rifle by Wesson, that had gain twist rifling; one in 6 feet at the breech and tightening to one turn in 3 feet 6 inches at the muzzle.

David
 
Thank you for starting this thread. A couple years ago I bought a box lot containing several old bullet molds at an auction and one of them was a sugarloaf mold, but I didn't know what to call it at the time, and had forgotten about it until seeing this thread. Quite frankly, I didn't know what it was for: Fishing weights and "swan" shot both crossed my mind but since it wasn't round or made for typical conicals, I just wasn't sure. It is a large, hexagonal brass dual cavity mold without handles, though it once had removable handles and there are two holes tapped for small machine thread screws on each side. Both cavities are teardrops and the mold has CAL .312 stamped on it, which looks about right. I'll have to rig up some handles and try casting a few to see what they weigh in at, next time I set up to cast some lead.

I have a mule ear squirrel gun, about that size, but they would probably be too tight with a patch.

Does anyone know if these were fired with patches, just like round balls? I would guess they would take a special tip on the ramrod for the point, whether seated on a patch or any other way.
 
In Robert's book he mentions using patches with them. They were tapered to accommodate the greater amount of patch material toward the nose. He mentioned that they were difficult to load straight. The Greenhill formula can use used to determine the twist needed.
 
Loyalist Dave said:
I thought that the original bullet for the Walker was a 170 grain, highly conical, "Picket" bullet? That's only 28 grains heavier than a .451 round ball.

:wink:

LD

Yo Dave.
32 to a pound is the only description I remember.
 
talk of sugar loaf bullets reminds me of the Ballettes that used to be around. Those were roughly 2x caliber and shot fine in almost any twist. If the similarity holds true, I'd guess the sugar loafs didn't require a special twist and grew popular cuzz they could be shot with good results from almost any old gun.

Talk of good results with very fast twists using a prb has me a bit bumfuzzled. :hmm: Contradicts much of what I have believed about this issue for many years. Not having any experience with rifle twists, using prb faster than 1:48" I cannot affirm or contradict statements that a twist like 1:28" will work well. BTW, I would like to see a pic of the so-called sugarloaf bullet.
 
It looks to me there is flat bottomed haystack style, much like a cone; a flat pointed version of the same, which really looks the most like a sugar loaf to me; and a teardrop style, with rounded bottom. There also seem to be some variances in between.

Here is the flat pointed haystack version:

83702.jpg

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/relics/23427

Sugar loaf:

Salsas-Steps-240-56a615105f9b58b7d0dfd0b3.jpg
 
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Here is the teardrop style, like my mold should turn out:

TearDropPicket.JPG


I think there may be some discussion over what should be called sugarloaf bullets. Perhaps they should all be lumped together.
 
It sure looks like your going to have fun trying to keep that pointy end pointed exactly down the center of your barrel. :rotf:
 
Zonie said:
It sure looks like your going to have fun trying to keep that pointy end pointed exactly down the center of your barrel. :rotf:

Does the point end go down, or up? I though it went up. Then you could make a ramrod tip with a hole in it, to keep the point close to center in the barrel as you pushed it down. The sprue is on the bottom and some actual ACW recovered bullets show the sprue still attached, unlike the teardrop one in the picture I posted earlier , where the sprue has evidently been cut. These two have a sprue:

106403177.jpg


106403105.jpg

http://www.civilwarshotandshellrelics.com/bullets.html

These are both .36, so probably for revolvers.
 
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Well, when I said "down" I was really talking about the bullet being loaded, flat end down towards the powder and pointy end toward the muzzle.

I know it sounds weird but if I was a pointy ended bullet loaded against the powder, I might say, "Boy! It sure is a long way down to the opening. It might take a whole thousandths of a second for me to get there." :hmm:
 
First you shove it down the barrel, toward the breech, then it goes down the barrel towards the muzzle when you fire it off. I see the confusion.

If you could figure out how to load it with the point straight down towards the breech, it might actually be a better aerodynamic shape, like an extreme boat tail design, but loading it that way would be a real challenge. You'd probably have to make long wads with a cone shape cut out of them, and stick the bullet to the wad with a bit of lubricant while you ran it down the barrel (towards the breech).
 
Reminds me of the need for "custom" bullet seating plugs when loading some metalic cartridges (sorry for the modern reference, but it fits). To get an oddball shape, I just use hard wax in the plug. If I use that bullet often enough, I just turn a new seating plug to fit. Don't see the slightest reason in the world a guy couldn't "inlet" a jag to fit that shape and seat it straight and true every time, all the time. Meanwhile it would still work just fine with round balls, I bet.
 
I have puzzled over the sugar loaf period ever since reading Ned Roberts for the first time many years ago. My thought is the only way to get them centered over the powder charge would be to load them with a ramrod having a cutout in the tip that matches the profile of the nose.
Arizonan, I cannot imagine getting accuracy with the teardrop.
 
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