Starting A New Knife Build

[Pete44ru]

I ran across this Dexter/Russel 10" (blade) knife today @ a Salvation Army store @ $3 - and thought it might make up into a nice "Butcher Bowie".

Since I had a piece of a shed stag/antler (Whitetail), I wanted to graft it onto the blade after I cleaned the blade up.

So, I removed the plastic grip and gave the blade a preliminary cleanup.

I did a dummy fit, just to see if was doable.

I'm pretty sure it's a viable conversion - this is what it might look like when I'm done - I just have to decide about a crossguard, and fit everything.

We'll see how it comes out, at a future date ( que sera sera )…………….. :roll:

 

[Flycaster1977]

That should turn out real nice.

 

[Jeff Kaufmann]

I too think it should turn out nicely. How are you planning on permanently attaching the handle?

 

[Artificer]

Pete,

I'm wondering if you would be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity on the width of the blade at the spline or back of the blade?

The reason I ask is because once you took the handle off, the first thing I thought about when I saw your picture was the blade could also be made into a NEAT 18th Century French Scalper Trade Knife as well, depending on the thickness of the blade.

Gus

 

[Pete44ru]

.

Gus, the blade is 1/8" thick for about 3/4's of the length, on the rear portion of the 10" blade.

It came out with an OAL of 15".

I think it looks like a scalper, myself - whaddya think ?


After trying various cross guard configs, I decided to go w/o one, simply dressing down the front end of the stag/antler a bit.

IDK if I'll make a sheath for it yet...………………

.

 

[Sinner]

Looks nice!

 

[Artificer]

.

Gus, the blade is 1/8" thick for about 3/4's of the length, on the rear portion of the 10" blade.

It came out with an OAL of 15".

I think it looks like a scalper, myself - whaddya think ?


After trying various cross guard configs, I decided to go w/o one, simply dressing down the front end of the stag/antler a bit.

IDK if I'll make a sheath for it yet...………………

.

VERY interesting information, Pete. Thank you!

Yes, with the blade shape, thickness and length, it is right inside "specs" for an 18th Century French Scalper Trade Knife. That is good to know information and I do appreciate it.

May I be so bold as to suggest something in case you wish to make it look more authentic? (Please understand I am not trying to tell you what to do, only making a suggestion and feel free to ignore it.)

In the period for a Trade Knife, a replacement handle would more likely have been made of wood, BUT that is not to say antler is out of the question, so don't get me wrong. They would have used "cutlers resin" or pine pitch mixed with sawdust or other media, as the "glue" to fill and seal gaps between the blade tang and handle material, as well to help keep the handle on. (They also might have used lead or pewter, as well.) However, they would not have relied on the cutler's resin, alone, to keep the handle on and would have used 2 or 3 "cross pins" in the handle material made of Iron and around 3/16" in diameter, to keep the handle attached to the blade.

Now the problem for us is that we have to make cutlers resin ourselves, if we want to use that and SOFT Iron pins are extremely hard to find, if one can find them at all. Further, personally I would not risk damaging an antler grip by peening both sides of each pin, because it is much easier to crack antler than wood, when peening the pins. (Can you tell this happened to me one time? Shucks. GRIN)

Original documentation for cutlers resin states if often had a reddish brown color, though I'm not entirely sure where the reddish color came from. The media used as a filler in the cutler's resin was sometimes sawdust and sometimes other things. I've been thinking on how simulate period cutler's resin, but with the added protection of epoxy both to better seal the gap and stop possible infection from blood/meat that can get trapped in pine resin.

I think I'm going to experiment with Clear 2 Ton Epoxy and add some Medium Brown Leather dye to get the reddish brown color. I would also add sawdust, or in your case maybe antler dust, as the filler/binder. I haven't actually done this yet, but I will try making up a small batch in the next few days to see how it sets up.

I use common nails around 3/16" diameter instead of Iron Pins that I can't find and don't have a forge to make. No one can tell the difference once they are in place, anyway. HOWEVER, I would not peen the outer edges of the pins, but rather just drill holes for the pin through the handle and tang and trust the Epoxy Mix to keep them in place. Then file/dress the pins down to the surface of the grip material, after the epoxy mix cures.

Again, please understand these are only suggestions and feel free to ignore them.

Gus

 

[Pete44ru]

Thank you for your suggestions - I accept them in the spirit you intended, giving them.

I was thinking about pinning the antler to the tang, but the tang is HARDENED, precluding drilling. (YMMV - I only have a few simple home workshop tools)

I suppose I could drill shallow holes on each side of the antler & install faux rivet heads - but IDK if I want to disrupt the harmony of the antler surface's grain/knurling.

To attach the antler to the tang, I used the modern version of cutlers resin - a 2-part epoxy, into which I also mixed in the antler dust amassed during drilling/inletting the antler core for the tang.

BTW, when grasped, the curve of the antler positions the knife at the perfect angle for lateral slicing - handy if I want to scalp some miscreant....

 

[Artificer]

The tang was hardened, eh? That's unusual, but on the other hand I can see it is faster/cheaper to harden/anneal the entire blade in an assembly line.

Glad to hear the grip wound up in a good position for lateral slicing. Hope you enjoy the knife and it sounds like you will.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

I'm well acquainted with that blade from years of butchering. It's the right size and shape for big jobs and clean cuts. The shape persists through years of sharpening, and now mine is only about 2/3 original dimensions.

Only advice I can add is to get yourself a good sharpening steel. The stainless steel likes a fine polish after stone sharpening, in order to do its best work.

 

[Pete44ru]

I agree, BB - I already have/use a quality steel that came with a commercial grade Henckles kitchen knife set I bought years ago.

 

[Black Hand]

...but the tang is HARDENED, precluding drilling. (YMMV - I only have a few simple home workshop tools).

Clamp the blade in your vise, leaving a portion of the tang exposed, heat to red with a propane torch and allow to air-cool or bury in ashes/cat litter to cool - this will usually soften the tang to allow drilling. The vise serves as a heat-sink that keeps the heat from migrating and affecting blade hardness. You can also wrap a wet towel around the blade before clamping in the vise for additional insurance. On occasion, you come across air-hardening steel (Stihl-brand flat chainsaw files seem to air-harden), but this shouldn't be an issue with knives.

 

[Pete44ru]

Thanks for the tip, BH - I won't remove the stag just to pin it - but I'll remember that if/when I come across one again (or if the adhesive I used fails someday )

 

[Bo T]

I have drilled hardened tangs using a concrete bit for non precision holes. And by using (I believe) tungsten carbide bit for precision holes (it was expensive). I had more difficulty making sure the holes in the handle lined up perfectly with the holes in the tang.

 

[Bo T]

I have drilled the holes for the pins with the handle mounted. The knife has to be solidly locked in position. High speed bit through the handle to the tang. Fluted carbide bit through the tang. Smaller high speed bit to place the hole on the back side (sometimes the large bit will seize going through the tang). Rotate the knife and open up the hole to fit the pin.

 

[Black Hand]

Thanks for the tip, BH - I won't remove the stag just to pin it - but I'll remember that if/when I come across one again (or if the adhesive I used fails someday )

Modern epoxy will soften/fail if heated. If the temperature is below the tempering temperature, you won't soften the blade any. IIRC, most temperings happen above 350-375F...

Another suggestion - make a few V-cuts into the edge of the tang for the epoxy to grip (and a few through-holes in the tang if there is enough meat). Gives a more secure hold. Even on relatively thin hidden or stick tangs, I will make grooves with a triangular file for the glue to grip.

Since I stopped making modern knives, I no longer use epoxy - I depend on pins, a snug fit and period cutler's resin to attach handles.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Two iron pins, a snug fit and cutlers resin as BH mentioned above. Personally I find epoxy to be like artificial sinew and a sin in the reenactment community!

Not sure if I missed it, but I apologize as this tiny phone screen and small lettering make it hard to see, but what material is that blade made from? Certainly like the scalper profile. A bit on the large side but could easily be worked down with little effort.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Also if you plan on making a sheath, make a good liner from heavy rawhide to go with it. No liner will ever fully prevent a scalpel sharp blade from punching through, but it's a must none the less. I use bison rawhide that I make myself, very tough and thick.

As well, a good center seam sheath from heavy hide and contoured to the knife profile is also another good option.

 

[Pete44ru]

Thanks to all, for your input...…

I will receive it all in the spirit it was given.

 

[Artificer]

FWIW, I check the hardness of tangs and also anneal them when I find them hard, like Blackhand mentioned.

Here is an important tip if you are not used to drilling through any kind of Antler or bone grip with such a tang that I also 2 ton epoxy first, before I drill the holes. Carefully pad the grip with leather and drill through one side and you will feel when you hit the tang inside. Drill through that and stop before going through the other side. Then place the grip with thick leather under it on a sacrificial piece of wood, that way when you drill through the antler completely and into the leather and possibly the sacrificial wood, the drill bit is far less likely to chip out a piece of the antler/bone on the surface of the opposite side of the grip. I also agree with drilling all the way through with a slightly smaller drill bit than the pin, turning the grip over and then drilling from the opposite side with a drill bit for the actual size of the pin.

It is a WHOLE lot easier using antler or bone 2 piece grip scales when drilling through those materials. I epoxy glue on scale on drill through the tang hole and into the scale. Then I glue the other grip on and use the first hole as guide by drilling through the hole in the grip I already did and then through the tang and finally the undrilled scale. No problem at all getting the holes to align through the tang and grip scales when doing it that way.

OK, as to the blade of this knife being stainless steel, I can live with that not being period correct because once you hand polish the blade with brick dust or emory powder, you can't tell the difference anyway. Yes, I would prefer the blade not to be stainless and rather regular steel, but there are times you won't be able to tell the difference at goodwill stores, flea markets, etc.

Gus