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Spiller & Burr

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I just picked up a Spiller & Burr pistol yesterday at a local gun show. It was sold new, no box, I believe original shipping oil is on it. Now my problem is identifying it.
it has both proof house marks on it and the manu. date XXX which I have gathered means 1974. But I can't ID the manufacturer. Info is as follows:
Top of the barrel says Spiller And Burr
left side of barrel says made in Italy.
Right side of the barrel both proof marks CAL.36 black powder only.
Right side of frame has the proof houses and manuf. date XXX.
Bottom of the strap is s/n 1523 and 2 diamonds connected together.
a Full 6" barrel.
Anyone have any Idea?
 
Ahhh!

The mystery of the ole' double diamond raises its ugly head.

Over the years, there have been a number of posts asking about the maker who used the overlapping double diamond but no one to my knowledge has really come up with a provable answer.

The pistols noted for using this logo range from the Remington Army to Spiller & Burrs to Derringers.

Guns imported by Richland Arms and Dixie Gunworks sometimes carry the marking.

Many say F.LLIPIETTA used this logo.

Others say Palmetto although Palmetto is known for using a palm tree in their logo.

Maybe someday, someone who was involved with importing black powder guns back in the 1970's and 80's will come along and answer the question, once and for all. :)
 
Will this help?

Modern Black Powder Proofmarks
15
Modern Black Powder Proofmarks Unraveling The Mystery Of Icons
BY DENNIS ADLER
Symbol Year of Proof
X 1954
XI 1955
XII 1956
XIII 1957
XIV 1958
XV 1959
XVI 1960
XVII 1961
XVIII 1962
XIX 1963
XX 1964
XXI 1965
XXII 1966
XXIII 1967
XXIV 1968
XXV 1969
XXVI 1970
Symbol Year of Proof
XX7 1971 XX8 1972 XX9 1973 XXX 1974 AA 1975 AB 1976 AC 1977 AD 1978 AE 1979 AF 1980 AH 1981 AI 1982 AL 1983 AM 1984 AN 1985 AP 1986 AS 1987
Symbol Year of Proof
AT 1988 AU 1989 AZ 1990 BA 1991 BB 1992 BC 1993 BD 1994 BF 1995 BH 1996 BI 1997 BL 1998 BM 1999 BN 2000 BP 2001 BS 2002 BT 2003

These are the three standard stampings on every Italian-made black powder revolver, pistol, rifle and shotgun. From left to right: year of manufacture, Gardone V.T. black powder proof house stamping, and Gardone proof house stamping. The year of manufacture is?
When you purchase either a 2nd or 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder Arms revolver it bears the Colt patent stamping on the frame and the Colt address on the top of the barrel. There is also a serial number stamped on the bottom of the frame, again on the bottom of the barrel lug, trigger guard and buttstrap. The serialization indicates the year or period of manufacture, and this is as straightforward as model identification gets. Even though many of the Colt parts for the 2nd Generation, and all of the Colt parts for the 3rd Generation were cast in Italy, the guns were finished and assembled in the United States by Colt or the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company, and Colt pistols, regardless of the origin of their components, bear only Colt markings.
The same model gun, an 1860 Army for example, man- ufactured in Italy and sold by Uberti or F.LLI Pietta, is stamped with a variety of markings ”“ Italian Proof House devices, manufacturer's symbols and an encoded date of manufacture. It is usually a combination of heraldry and letters, which need to be decoded. The same is true of flintlock and percussion lock pistols and long rifles man- ufactured by Uberti, F.LLI Pietta, ArmiSport, Davide Pedersoli, Armi San Paolo SRL (Euroarms), and Palmetto, which comprise the major Italian manufactur- ers currently in production.
The Italian proof houses in Gardone and Valtrompia have been around for a very long time but as far as repro- duction black powder arms are concerned, the dating begins in 1954. Prior to 1954, the year of proof was indi- cated in full Arabic numerals.
Following is a chart displaying the year of proof symbols used from 1954 to 2003. These are traditionally found with- in a box next to the individual proof house symbols. From
1954 through 1970 Roman Numerals were used. Roman Numerals and Arabic Numerals were combined in 1971, 1972, and 1973, and Roman Numerals were used again in 1974. Since 1975 two capital letters
have been used exclusively.
As to the placement of proof house symbols, it depends
upon the model of gun, and the level of embellishment,
the latter often dictating a discrete location on the under- side of the barrel or frame on highly engraved examples.
There are two standardized proof house marks. The first is the provisional Gardone proof, consisting of a star sur- rounded by eight lands and grooves over a coat of arms featuring a hammer and anvil and crossed bayoneted rifles; the second is a star surround by eight lands and grooves over the capital letters PN. All firearms produced in Italy since 1950, regardless of type, receive the first stamping. The second, also instituted in 1950, is the first black powder proof for Gardone and Brescia, and is only used on black powder arms. Thus all black powder arms must bear both proof house symbols.
Finally, there is the manufacturer's mark. This is often confusing unless one is familiar with the manufacturers' insignia. Most use their logo, while some combine their name and logo, or use an abbreviation as their logo. Earlier guns generally bear only their manufacturers' mark, while more recent production has been seen using both an emblem and company name.
Davide Pedersoli, one of Italy's oldest manufacturers has had three logos since 1957. The earliest was a dia- mond inside a circle. This is rarely seen. This mark was followed by the image of an anvil with PEDERSOLI above it in capital letters and the initials DAP inside the anvil. This again is rarely seen, except on very early mod-
16
Modern Black Powder Proofmarks, cont.
els. The company logo, a lowercase dp within an oval, has been used for more than 40 years. This logo is often followed by the DAVIDE PEDERSOLI or PEDERSOLI name in capital letters. In short, there is no mistaking a Pedersoli product!
The same is true of Aldo Uberti, S.r.l, which has used the same logo since its founding in 1959 ”“ a capital U contained within an octagonal barrel device.
For Fratelli Pietta, another of Italy's leading manufac- turers of black powder pistols and long arms, the initials FAP contained within a horizontal diamond identify F.LLI Pietta; often followed by F.LLI PIETTA in capital letters.
Palmetto, which manufactures a variety of black pow- der arms distributed primarily through Dixie Gun Works, uses a very recognizable palm tree within a circle as their company logo.
Armi San Paolo S.r.l., established in 1970, uses the last names of the original founders Grassi, Doninelli, and Gazzola as a symbol, DGG, usually contained within a circle. Beginning December 31, 2001, Armi San Paolo officially became Euroarms Italia S.r.l. The same logo is used on all Euroarms models.
Armi Sport, which produces an exceptional line of sin- gle shot percussion pistols like the French Le Page, Sharps rifles, and the popular Spencer rifle for Taylor's & Co.,

The underside of this screw barrel deringer manufactured by Pedersoli shows only the dp logo. Both proof house marks are present and a boxed BL denoting the year of manufacture as 1998.

Aldo Uberti S.r.l. was founded in 1959 and has always used a capital U sur- rounded by an octagonal device, which is actually the muzzle of an 1851 Navy (their first gun) with six lands and grooves and the front sight. This photo of a Paterson barrel has a boxed AZ indicating a manufacturing date of 1990.

F.LLI Pietta always uses its diamond logo with the initials FAP. This is the bar- rel from a Le Mat revolver and it also bears the company name and country of origin. The proof house marks and manufacturing code are stamped elsewhere on the gun.
Here is an example of a manufacturer using two different styles. The stand- alone Palmetto palm tree logo on this screw barrel derringer, and the logo and company name on the barrel of this 1851 Navy.
The barrel pictured is a perfect example as it bears all of the Italian proof marks described. This is from a Deluxe engraved Pedersoli Le Page pistol, and all of the stampings are on the underside of the barrel. From left to right (upside down) are the test house and black powder proof house stampings, followed by a boxed BM, denoting a manufacturing date of 1999, then the gun's serial number, a dp oval manufacturer's mark, as well as the PEDERSOLI name, pistol caliber and notification that the gun is for black powder only. This warning appears on the bar- rel or barrel lug of all black powder arms manufactured in Italy.
uses an AC within a circle, (AC for Armi Chiappa founder Rino Chiappa's last name).
Armed with this information it is now possible to iden- tify the maker and year of manufacture on any black pow- der rifle, shotgun, pistol, or revolver produced since 1950. â– 
Arms originally manufactured by Armi San Paolo S.r.l. or Euroarms S.r.l., now the pro- prietary name, bear the DGG emblem representing the company's founders, Grassi, Doninelli, and Gazzola.

 
Thanks.

That is basically a copy to the same thing that our forum has listed in the "Charts, Reference" area.

It is under the title of "Modern Replica Dating by Proof Marks".

Here's a link for those who want to see the pictures:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/236956/

That "Charts, Reference" area on our forum has a lot of good information in it and I think more people should go there and read the available information.

Even if they don't need it right now, at sometime in the future they may. Then they can say to themselves, "Hey! I know where I can find just what I need to know!" and a few clicks later they will have it. :grin:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/131/

PS: Unfortunetly, it still doesn't answer the double diamond question. It says nothing at all about this factory logo. :(
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I read somewhere that the double diamonds were the logo of Italian replica maker EUROMANUFACTURE.
I have one of their Patersons of 1971 making with 9" barrel and extra cylinder. On this Paterson the double diamonds logo is tamped under the barrel.
Long Johns Wolf
 
I found this on another forum and can't be sure how accurate it is:

"MOFRA This has been found on Patersons sold by Replica Arms.
Two elongated Diamonds with side points touching. Also found on Replica Arms."

"2 elongated diamonds:
Mofra (Mononi Gino)-----------None
MOFRA di Mainardi A.----------Brescia 1971
MOFRA This has been found on Patersons sold by Replica Arms. Two elongated Diamonds with side points touching. Also found on Replica Arms.
MOFRA was bought by Euromanufacture around 1980."
 
I have a pair of these S&Bs with consecutive 2 digit serial numbers that I acquired from a since departed friend about 25 or more years ago. His widow has serial number 1 and the story he told me was that he had an original at the time that he sent to Italy through a 3rd party for the manufacturer to copy. They have the double diamond on the bottom of the grip and a date code of XX9 (1973). The cylinders used came from a Remington as they have the safety notches between the nipples and the N-SSA will not grant approval to these copies because of that. "MADE IN ITALY" upside down on the right side of the barrel. Overall these seem to be better than average mechanically with a very good fit and finish.
 

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