Spanish .45 Percussion

Discussion in 'Percussion Rifles' started by Walkingeagle, Jun 2, 2019.

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  1. Jun 2, 2019 #1

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    Ok, I know this will be real easy for most everyone, however locally we don’t have much exposure to muzzleloaders let alone older foreign ones. I recently acquired for cheap with a missing lock. I need positive identification please so I can source out a correct lock. Perhaps even the proper name of the lock required.
    Anyhow, its a 32”, 7/8” octagon .45 cal percussion, very shallow rifled (I suspect a previous owner took a wire brush on a drill to the bore btw) full stock Kentucky style gun. It has a 2 piece generic hardwood stock with about a 3” brass wrap covering the seam. 1/4” ramrod with a worm (spiral) slotted tip on one end. Brass furniture. No markings on the barrel with the exception of serial number (located right side of barrel mid length down), “.45” on left side 6” ahead of breech and “SPAIN” on underside flat right ahead of breech. Percussion breech is patent (not drum) with sharply angled nipple. I suspect this is an old Jukar based on looks exactly like pictures of some Jukar pistols I found online.
    I will try to post pictures but really struggle with this aspect.
    Thanks
    Walk
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  2. Jun 2, 2019 #2

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    Picture attempt...
     

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  3. Jun 2, 2019 #3

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    Here is a screen shot of a Jukar pistol with what I suspect is the lock I require...
     

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  4. Jun 2, 2019 #4

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    I should also add that the original front sight has been replaced and the rear sight relocated at some point in its past.
    Many thanks all.
    Walk
     
  5. Jun 3, 2019 #5

    Zonie

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    The Firearm Identification forum area is for original guns made prior to 1865. Because your gun seems to be a modern reproduction, I'm moving this topic to the Percussion Rifle forum area.
     
  6. Jun 3, 2019 #6

    Badgerfarm

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    The wide brass band makes me think that it's an Ultra High made by Miroku. I've heard that some were decent and some had welded breaches though I've not been able to verify that. Later on Miroku went on to produce a very respectable copy of an 1863 Springfield that are very close to the original profile and pattern of a 63 Springfield. I don't know what lock would come close to fitting your Kentucky rifle copy. Sorry, I couldn't be more help.
     
  7. Jun 3, 2019 #7

    msellers

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  8. Jun 3, 2019 #8

    DOUBLEDEUCE 1

    DOUBLEDEUCE 1

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    You’re on the right track. It’s a Jukar.
     
  9. Jun 3, 2019 #9

    hawkeye2

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  10. Jun 3, 2019 #10

    n.h.schmidt

    n.h.schmidt

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    Your picture of the pistol lock is the right one for you. I have a rifle with that lock. You may find one on ebay sometimes. They are indeed Spanish made. Mine shoots well and is accurate. That outward angle nipple looks funny but they are all like that. It gives these guns a advantage in that the flame path to the powder is almost direct. Giving very reliable ignition with any powder. The lock quality isn't good but can be made better. The tumble on mine wasn't hard enough to stand up very long. If I got one now I would re case harden that part right away.
    n.h.schmidt
     
  11. Jun 3, 2019 #11

    Badgerfarm

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  12. Jun 4, 2019 #12

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    That lock is looking exactly correct to fit, along with the sitting fox lock as well. Thanks for the insight.
    Question, if it was made by Miroku, would the underside of the barrel be marked “Spain”?
    Walk
     
  13. Jun 4, 2019 #13

    Badgerfarm

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    It doesn't make any sense unless it's a copy of a copy? Maybe a different retailer trying to compete with Sears using another contractor other than Miroku. I'm thinking maybe, Wards, Western Auto, Penney's, Otasco, or who knows. It is very odd though but it looks like Spanish parts would fit. Maybe the Japanese contracted with Jukar for some or all of the components or? It's an interesting oddity. I'm curious to see what markings are on the bottom of the barrel along with the Spain stamp. It's got to be a Jukar though. I did notice in the OP's picture that the tang on the barrel had the identical misfit to the pictures on the other website. Is it possible that it could be the same rifle? I won't be able to sleep now thinking about this. I know better than to get wound up in brainteasers before bedtime. Dangit!
     
  14. Jun 4, 2019 #14

    Cowboy

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    I have both a CVA Kentucky and Jukar Kentucky. Neither has that type of bolster nipple configuration? The stock seperation band looks like Ultra High?

    The Jukar pistol lock mortise seems to match your Kentucky Rifle mortise?

    First off if it was me, I’d give deercreek a call and ask if Jukar had more than one variation of the Kentucky Rifle, sporting different Lock’s and stock seperation joint bands.

    Secondly, I’d consider the lock pictured in the Jukar pistol pic. Your rifle barrel bolster/nipple configuration as well as lock mortise in both stocks seems to matchup. Both made in Spain as well!

    Lastly, if I was a betting man, I’d say there is more than one variation of the Jukar Kentucky Rifle. I’d also say that I believe the lock on that Jukar Pistol is the same lock that you’re looking for!

    Give Deer Creek a call and inquire. No results then look at purchasing the Jukar Pistol Lock. Most positive that’s what you’re looking for.

    Respectfully, Cowboy
     
  15. Jun 4, 2019 #15

    Badgerfarm

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    My Jukar from the early 70's doesn't have that type of bolster either. It's a drum style and has a very thin brass plate where the stock halves are joined. The bolsters between the pistol lock in the picture and the rifle in his photos are a spot on match. I'm pretty sure that the lock will be available. I sold a box of Kentucky type pistol parts to Desperate Lee a few months ago and I know there was a lock that looked like that in the bunch. Maybe he still has it and would part with it? It would be worth a try. I'll send him a message and see if he still has that lock and maybe he can hook Walking eagle up with one?
     
  16. Jun 4, 2019 #16

    Loyalist Dave

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    WINNER!
    Yes that's an Ultra-Hi caplock. Whether it was made by Miroku is not 100%, but Miroku did make a lot of the Ultra-Hi products. Here is a closeup of a known Ultra-Hi lock and nipple, and you can see it is pretty similar to yours. Yours has a cleanout screw while the one below does not.
    Ultra Hi Miroku Lock and Nipple.jpg

    So that's what you're looking for.

    LD
     
  17. Jun 4, 2019 #17

    zimmerstutzen

    zimmerstutzen

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    Did Ultra Hi have guns made in Spain? Didn't the OP say the barrel was stamped SPAIN I seriously doubt Miroku stamped their guns with the word Spain. Either way, the Ultra Hi lock pictured and Spanish pistol lock pictured both look like the early Jukar percussion lock. The drum and nipple system was phased in slowly over on the line of CVA imports. and that bolster was still used on the colonial pistol about 1980. That same lock was used on various imports from Spain. Also used on the early CVA Tower pistols (45 caliber)
     
  18. Jun 4, 2019 #18

    zimmerstutzen

    zimmerstutzen

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    Incidentally, my first CVA pistol, a Jukar made about 1973, had extremely shallow rifling. Barely scratches in the bore. I don't think Miroku ever sold anything with rifling that shallow.
     
  19. Jun 4, 2019 #19

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    Thanks again for the follow up information. Regarding the bbl stamping, I will post pictures when I get back to the gun (I am away for a day or two) and eagerly await everyones thoughts. You are correct in that it appears exactly to be a Ultra-Hi, just the “SPAIN” stamping on the bbl underside is confusing. The rifling btw is extremely shallow, and cannot even be felt with a tight patch. Thus my suspicions of someone taking a brush on a drill to the bore. They barely show with the bore light.
    I sent an info request to Sitting Fox for measurements of their CVA shotgun lock and will also ket everyone know those results.
    Thanks again.
    Walk
     
  20. Jun 5, 2019 #20

    Walkingeagle

    Walkingeagle

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    Some pictures of the stamp on the underside of the barrel and also some possible file marks indicating potential stamping removal from left side and top flat of the barrel. The caliber stamp as well.
    Sitting Fox emailed and just asked for my address, which I gave, but no measurements yet to provide.
    Thanks
    Walk
     

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