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Something amiss with Pietta sheriff model.

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user 54092

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I own a used pistol as described in the title of this post, a pawn shop purchase, so you can guess the condition. I've been working on it and have, so far, tightened the arbor and installed a button on same. I tried to install new innards and found the cylinder was over rotating, (the original parts look to have been worked over pretty good). So I went back to the old parts and the gun locks up where it should, BUT now the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone is twice (or maybe more) the tolerance it should be. I've tried removing the button I've installed at the end of the arbor but the gap remains. My question is, can a shortened hand be the culprit, as with the rest of the inward parts, it too has the look of someone chipping the tip down a bit. (I use the word "chipping" to describe the tool marks left, it look like a chisel was used instead of a file.)
How long does the hand engage the cylinder notches? Until the hammer drops? That's my understanding, but if I'm wrong it won't be the first time. I'll gladly entertain any notions as to the answer to my dilemma.
Oh, and the date of manufacture is 1996 incase it's an issue of that's the way they were made that year. I tried to fit a newer barrel to the frame and noticed the studs didn't line up very well, so there appears to be a difference in how they were built. Or has this gun be abused beyond repair, even though the frame is steel.
TIA. Jim
 
Pictures would help. Action parts don't have anything to do with the endshake (barrel/cylinder clearanc). The arbor is short but the "button" may be too thick. If so, you can dress (sand/file) it down till you get .003" max (.0025" wouldbe perfect!). Make sure the wedge slot in the arbor goes further back than the slot in the barrel assy. , if there the same ( in line with each other), then your wedge isn't doing anything.

Mike
 
The button has been filed down to where the frame and barrel pass the test Pettifogger wrote about in his tune up instructions. Before I did that the barrel was at least 1/16th of an inch behind the frame pins. with or w/out the button the clearance is the same. I'll have to try another wedge since I'm able to push it out with my finger. Not sure what the answer is if the wedge slot in both the barrel and the arbor line up with each other, as I'm thinking it is as I write this without looking. Hence being finger tight.
I'll try to get a picture uploaded.
 
I think the biggest problem with that "test" is that it doesn't work on an out of the box example (and it doesn't have to!!). You have to dress the arbor just to do that . . . which means you're removing material that is helping with what you're ultimately trying to accomplish which is fitment!!

"with or without the button, the clearance is the same " = something else is stopping the barrel assy. it's not bottoming out.

The answer if the slots line up at the rear is to increase the slot in the arbor further back. The wedge "pulls the barrel assy onto the arbor tight against the end of the arbor" by pushing against the forward end of the arbor slot AND the rear of the Barrel slot. So, if the rear of the slots are on the same plain it can't do that . . . the wedge is just trapped in the arbor slot.

Mike
 
No, I looked again, the arbor/barrel slot alignment looks as it should. I'm not sure what you mean by dressing the arbor, to me it would mean taking it down by means of polishing. Nothing like that has been done by me, but it is well used and as I said before the working parts have had something done to them outside of normal wear and tear.
I'll mike the arbor and compare it to my newer 60 Army and see what's what, could be the previous owner wasn't patient enough to remove the wedge the proper way.
I re-installed the arbor so the back side is flush with the frame and was as tight as it could go, indexing it and the whole shebang. It was as loose as I would imagine it shouldn't be, but if the previous owner shaved something down for ease of disassembly the recoil could've cause a lot of slamming where it shouldn't have. I didn't mike the forcing cone but I did an eyesight comparison to a new barrel and it looks OK.
Probably try another wedge as well. Or make a plague and hang it up. The barrel is a sight to behold anyway, should've took it down before I left the pawn shop with it.
If the arbor is out of spec I fear it'll be an AHA moment and be tempted to throw more money at it. Maybe I should leave well enough alone, maybe.
 
I would not call the shortened hand wrong it makes the gun time properly. Yes, the longer hand can shove the cylinder forward to the barrel.

Using a feeler gauge, what is the cylinder gap measurement with your correct timed hand?
 
The mic. reads .049
IMG_0003.jpg
 
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The pic is at full cock, but it also depicts the same condition w/the hammer resting on the nipple.
 
Resting? No. I have fired it in such condition and am pretty sure the main spring closes the gap upon discharge, but at rest it's as the picture shows.
 
That's way too much endshake!
What did you do to the arbor? Looks like it's not screwed into the frame enough.

Mike
 
I repaired the wobble. Indexed the back end of the arbor with the frame, drilled out the old pin, unscrewed and cleaned the threads, peaned the shoulder a bit, coated the threads with lock tight, screwed it back in to the index marks (the end of the arbor is flush with the backside of the frame's arbor hole), replaced the old pin with a new one. And then I added a button at the end of the arbor to fill the gap between arbor and barrel.
If I remove the button that is filling a gap between the front of the arbor and the barrel's arbor port's face I get the same endshake. Without the button I installed at the end of the arbor, the barrel doesn't move any closer to the frame. The bottom of the frame, where it meets the bottom of the barrel, is butted up tight one to another regardless if the button is installed or not. Same serial number on both, so the barrel is original to the frame.
 
Well, the verdicts in. Looks like I'm about to do my first defarbing work and hang this tired gun on the wall.
I compared the arbor length with another Pietta 60 Army and there's a .037 in. difference between the 2. I've also noticed an extra turning on the arbor, for whatever reason, and someone filed the ratchet teeth on the backside of the cylinder flat. I was willing to buy a new barrel and I have an extra cylinder from my conversion, but an arbor and barrel? Moral of this experience, if ever you buy an open top from a pawn shop ask for a hammer and punch and at least look down the barrel and check the cylinder ratchet teeth, at least that much.
Thanks to all who went on this journey with me.
 
Piettas weren't as good back then, I peened the stop slot on an older Pietta with Pyrodex and Buffalo Ball-ets in the mid-2000s

Pietta didn't heat treat the barrels as per an email from a Pietta employee who basically laughed at me

They were cheap back then and people beat on them, probably someone shooting round balls cast from metal they found on the side of the road using home brew powder from grandpa's basement that was in a milk jug

Like my coworkers who are like "I bought one of them cap and ball things at a gun show for 60 bucks and we shot it with some Blackhorn from my inclines and patched balls until it stopped working and I hucked it into the rock pit" like ok good job buddy

People seem more careful with more expensive guns, I rarely see many "beat up" Uberti Dragoons and have yet to see a LeMat that someone trashed....but gun shows are full of old brassers that rattle like Maracas when you pick them up
 
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I'd say its still repairable. Needs lower lug trim and new wedge made and fit. The hand will need shortening most likely when the gap is closed.
With that much gap the cylinder is really getting a run at the recoil shield when firing. My guess is the hand has been stretched to reach the ratchet with the huge barrel/cylinder gap there is and is what looks like chiseling on it. The technique for hand stretching is laying it on an anvil and striking it mid shank with a punch to elongate it.
 
If you run the arbor in a half turn the barrel frame mating surface will need trimming so the barrel can move back. That will close the gap and tighten the wedge. Possible the arbor wasn't set correctly at factory. QC wasn't as good back then.
Have you tried the other cylinder?
Filing on back of cylinder may have shortened the OAL.
If cylinder won't rotate to lock up the hand is too short. If the cylinder locks up but hammer won't lock back then the hand is too long.
 
Well I do have an update, a new hand of the proper length (the one that was in the gun was shortened for some reason) and the gap is fixed.
 
If you run the arbor in a half turn the barrel frame mating surface will need trimming so the barrel can move back. That will close the gap and tighten the wedge. Possible the arbor wasn't set correctly at factory. QC wasn't as good back then.
Have you tried the other cylinder?
Filing on back of cylinder may have shortened the OAL.
If cylinder won't rotate to lock up the hand is too short. If the cylinder locks up but hammer won't lock back then the hand is too long.
The arbor can only do full turns because of the slot and taper fit of the wedge to it.
 
Well I do have an update, a new hand of the proper length (the one that was in the gun was shortened for some reason) and the gap is fixed.
I'm sorry but hand spring tension is not the "fix" for closing any type of barrel / cylinder clearance . . . especially as big as the one in the picture. Also, the attitude of the barrel appears to be pointing downward so removing material from the barrel lug / frame would increase that. I believe the arbor needs to go another turn so you can dress ( remove material in small amounts) the "button" to get your target endshake. If the arbor threads are slightly proud of the frame ( with an additional turn) you can just file it down flush. Install the barrel and wedge (tight !) before you install the new staking pin.

Mike
 
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