Some Questions Regarding Percussion Sharps Rifles

[Notchy Bob]

I've taken more of an interest in Sharps rifles recently.

I already have a basic C. Sharps Hartford model in .45-70, but would like to know more about shooting the percussion models. Not so much the historical information... I already have Sharps Firearms by Frank Sellers, Sharps Rifle: The Gun that Shaped American Destiny by Martin Rywell, a reprint of the 1864 Sharps "Owner's Manual," and I recently bought Sharps Rifles of Montana: The Austin Monk Collection by Janet Monk, which is a great picture book with entertaining text, for Sharps enthusiasts.

So, I'm pretty well fixed for historical references and the 1864 manual is in fact very informative. However, I was hoping some of you fellows might recommend an up-to-date shooter's manual for currently available percussion Sharps rifles. I need to know things like bullet and mould selection, how to make Sharps-specific paper or linen cartridges, and what specific tools and equipment I'll need to get once I settle on a rifle. I'm not interested in dedicating a building to this project, either... Somehow, the old-timers loaded ammunition for their rifles by firelight in remote buffalo camps, and their equipment and accessories were likely pretty simple. That is the approach I would like to take.

I do have David T.T. Smith's book, The Civil War Reenactor's Blackpowder Guide, which has an excellent section on maintaining and cleaning the percussion Sharps. However, the focus of this book is on shooting blanks, and I'm interested in live fire.

Suggestions would be welcome.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[dave951]

Well Notchy, since I shoot live fire with a 63 Sharps here goes. First find a good specimen, tight, smooth action, decent barrel etc. Then BEFORE wasting money, slug the bore going from beech to muzzle. Measure the bullet, get a mold .002-3 over that dimension. Like most repops (and originals) bore size can vary greatly. Seriously consider either the Hahn or Flees breech mod. I went with Flees. Without it, you'll likely have the same limitations as originals did with regards to fouling.

Use only real black, preferably 3f. You can either roll your own tubes or use Charlie Hahn's.

That's enough to start for now. They're great fun too shoot and can be quite accurate.

 

[Nobade]

Just my experiences...
"Musket Matters" has a couple of very good vids on Youtube about making cartridges. You can make either the early ones that get the tail cut off when the block closes, or the later one that fits properly in the chamber and the fire flashes through the end. I prefer the latter, they have proven to be more accurate. Of course you don't need cartridges, I shoot with loose powder and bullets more often than I use cartridges.

Bullets? I like Moose Moulds designs. Especially the Guy France one. But there are quite a few out there that will work well. The ring tail ones are easier to make into cartridges, but not required.

The big thing about these rifles is you either buy an American made one, either a current Siloh or one from New York or a Garrett if you can find it and they work. Every single Italian made one is made differently than an original and they almost always need work to make them right. Charlie Hahn or Larry Fleener are your guys for this, they have the modifications figured out. Personally I had a Pedersoli that was rather awful, and got lucky enough to trade it for an early New York Shiloh which works every time and is a delight to use. And the Pedersoli is the top of the line Italian one, if that tells you anything.

These rifles do have a bit of a learning curve but once you get them figured out they are quite useful. I can't say I prefer one over my muzzleloaders but it is nice to go out to play with occasionally. And of course it is a heck of a hunting rifle that is easier to unload if you don't get a shot.

 

[Boston Bill]

I slather a light coating of bore butter on the gas plate and block and the plate is still easy to remove for cleaning ( thats when I put on the bore butter ) and I get no fouling problems. I usually only shoot up to 20 rounds with no problem.
It is an 1863 carbine in 50 and a rifle in 45. Both Farmingdales.
I don't cast. Anyone have any suggests on premade bullets?

 

[dave951]

Just my experiences...
"Musket Matters" has a couple of very good vids on Youtube about making cartridges.

"Musket Matters" videos are made by a member on this forum Mailemaker. He's N-SSA.

Bullets? I like Moose Moulds designs. Especially the Guy France one. But there are quite a few out there that will work well. The ring tail ones are easier to make into cartridges, but not required.

Moose are good. Easiest to deal with are those designed to take Charlie's tubes. Like with a musket, size of the bullet relative to the bore matters. You want your bullet about .002-3 over bore.

The big thing about these rifles is you either buy an American made one, either a current Siloh or one from New York or a Garrett if you can find it and they work. Every single Italian made one is made differently than an original and they almost always need work to make them right. Charlie Hahn or Larry Fleener are your guys for this, they have the modifications figured out. Personally I had a Pedersoli that was rather awful, and got lucky enough to trade it for an early New York Shiloh which works every time and is a delight to use. And the Pedersoli is the top of the line Italian one, if that tells you anything.

Aside from originals, American made ones are the Rolls Royce of Sharps. Pedersoli aren't as nice. Current production Shiloh are good and a Garret is excellent if you can find one. Emphasis on getting the Hahn or Flees mod to the block if you want to keep shooting and not clean the block fairly often. Now as for the rest of the spaghetti guns, Pedersoli is about the best. Armisport is so so. IAB are out of production and have a bad rep mainly because their cartridge guns are very poor quality. Their barrels however, they run big but they are excellent. IIRC, current aggregate record in the N-SSA is held by an IAB Sharps. I have two of them and they will shoot if you take the time to find out what works. Downside of these, parts can be an issue if anything breaks.

Yes, IAB Sharps can be made to shoot rather well. There are 4 bullets in one hole with a called flyer just over an inch away at 4oclock. The top right hole was from a Smith we were working on and it was hitting between the targets.-

 

[dave951]

I slather a light coating of bore butter on the gas plate and block and the plate is still easy to remove for cleaning ( thats when I put on the bore butter ) and I get no fouling problems. I usually only shoot up to 20 rounds with no problem.
It is an 1863 carbine in 50 and a rifle in 45. Both Farmingdales.
I don't cast. Anyone have any suggests on premade bullets?

I use a light film of Mobil1 synthetic grease on mine with zero issues for up to a hundred shots.

Premade bullets, there's only one source I trust for Civil War bullets commercially-

https://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html
Pat Kaboskey
S80 W30650 Meadowlark Circle
Mukwonago WI 53149

[email protected]
(262) 363-4625

 

[lexington1]

Dave951, Would you recommend the Flees mod on a Farmingdale Sharps? I have a decent old Shiloh and it seems to be ok. I also have a Pedersoli with Larry Flees' mod. I will say it is reliable as for the action functioning after numerous shots, but the rest of it has been quite the experience. I had to stretch the hammer a tad to hit squarely on the nipple. The way it was built, believe it or not, the edge of the hammer cone would hit the nipple and not cause it set the cap off sometimes.
Also have you tried the Richmond bullet from Eras Gone? I have had pretty good success with it, but have not tried any other design through my Sharps.

 

[dave951]

I'd say call Larry about the Farmingdale. IIRC, his mod is reversible while Charlie's isn't. If I'm correct, that means whatever Larry does can be put back to stock condition should you desire to do so.

As for the Eras bullet, no, I haven't tried it and for several reasons. First, my barrel slugged at .555 and the driving band on the Eras bullet is a bit over .545 meaning it's at least .010 too small for my barrel. Second, it's designed like the original meaning you'll have to find a method to affix a cartridge to it. While I get what he's doing, his mold is a direct copy of the original complete with all it's issues. A bullet like the Moose will accept a tube from Charlie with no muss nor fuss. Forget all that wrapping and rolling stuff. Remember what I said about the barrels, they're all over the place as were the originals, hence the "Christmas Tree" design to compensate.

One further word about the IAB Sharps. My dad is 88yo and it's his favorite Civil War gun to shoot. Several years ago we had a novelty event during the carbine match. Our team fielded 2 squads and Dad was on our other squad. Targets were 5 ping pong balls and 5 marbles at 25yd all hanging and dangling on strings in the wind. Of those 10 targets, dad nailed 9 with his Sharps. That's all the ping pong balls and 4 of the 5 marbles. The other 4 guys on his squad only accounted for 1 marble. Yeah, the IAB can shoot when you take time to set it up.

 

[Notchy Bob]

All responses are much appreciated. I need to familiarize myself with the Flees and Hahn modifications. I'll look them up.

I would most likely go with a Shiloh, although the 1863 offerings on their website are currently very limited. I called them a few days ago to ask about the full stocked version they used to build. I spoke with a very nice lady who knew their current line-up thoroughly but seemed unacquainted with their discontinued rifles or historical Sharps models. The upshot was she didn't know what I was talking about. I'm not stuck on that particular type, though. I'm just gathering information right now.

Again, I am much obliged to all who responded, whether with words of advice or with additional questions. I've gotten something useful out of every post so far.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Boston Bill]

Wow, last I knew there were no plans for Shiloh to bring back the 1863. I wonder if a new owner did that? They were for sale recently. 3 different caliber and 7 different barrel lengths! Nice!

 

[59sharps]

Well Notchy, since I shoot live fire with a 63 Sharps here goes. First find a good specimen, tight, smooth action, decent barrel etc. Then BEFORE wasting money, slug the bore going from beech to muzzle. Measure the bullet, get a mold .002-3 over that dimension. Like most repops (and originals) bore size can vary greatly. Seriously consider either the Hahn or Flees breech mod. I went with Flees. Without it, you'll likely have the same limitations as originals did with regards to fouling.

Use only real black, preferably 3f. You can either roll your own tubes or use Charlie Hahn's.

That's enough to start for now. They're great fun too shoot and can be quite accurate.

Dave
Charlie recommended using 2ffg in the sharps. Helps cut back on erosion.
Bullets i shoot are the Steve Brooks and the Bagdon copy the Moose makes.

 

[dave951]

Dave
Charlie recommended using 2ffg in the sharps. Helps cut back on erosion.
Bullets i shoot are the Steve Brooks and the Bagdon copy the Moose makes.

2f can help in the way Charlie modifies his blocks. Larry says 2 or 3, doesn't matter with his method. Larry's and Charlie's methods are different. I tried both and got better accuracy and less fouling with 3f. YMMV.

The bullet I use is a straight up type of Christmas Tree and the mold was made by Old Fox Traders. Sadly, George is no longer in business due to health reasons even though there's still a link at this time through the N-SSA web page. My bullet is almost exactly the Moose Christmas Tree Ringtail with the exception that the "tail" isn't grooved to accept a tied cartridge. Mine is flat for a slip fit from Charlie's tubes.

 

[Mangonboat]

I use a light film of Mobil1 synthetic grease on mine with zero issues for up to a hundred shots.

Thanks for that tip. I'm low volume and don't shoot enough in a session to even consider a mod on my early Farmingdale infantry rifle. For the same reason, I savor rolling my own cartridges.

 

[waksupi]

Austin Monk was a great guy, I shot with him many times, and we drank a bit of whiskey together. Well, maybe more than a bit.
Janet is still in this area, and we are in contact often. Many of his rifles are displayed at a local bank here.
I don't recall ever seeing Austin shoot a percussion Sharps. I had one for a while, but never fell in love with it enough to really put it through it's paces. Bluejacket Sanders shot one of them quite a bit, using a full wad cutter slug, that did well out to 700 yards.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Austin Monk was a great guy, I shot with him many times, and we drank a bit of whiskey together. Well, maybe more than a bit.
Janet is still in this area, and we are in contact often. Many of his rifles are displayed at a local bank here.
I don't recall ever seeing Austin shoot a percussion Sharps. I had one for a while, but never fell in love with it enough to really put it through it's paces. Bluejacket Sanders shot one of them quite a bit, using a full wad cutter slug, that did well out to 700 yards.

@waksupi ,

Thank you for your comments. I read and research a lot and don't remember where I found out about that book. I looked it up and Amazon showed it as out of stock. I thought it might be out of print, but found Janet has a Facebook page. I contacted her via Facebook to ask if there might be an unsold copy somewhere. It turned out that she still has a bunch of them, but just forgot to "restock" the Amazon listing. The upshot was I had a copy in my hands within a week.

I never met Austin (or Janet), but I sure do like the book. The photographs are excellent, very professionally done, and Janet's commentaries about the guns and her dad are just a hoot to read. The commentaries are also very informative, regarding the histories of the different rifle models. Janet had a bunch of Austin's rifles "lettered," and the letters are shown in the book, in a clearly readable format. Janet claimed to know very little about firearms. I would disagree.

Anyway, Austin may have not been seen shooting a percussion Sharps, but he apparently owned at least one, a Model 1859 carbine in .52 caliber. It is shown and described on pages 22 and 23 of the book. There is a great story that goes with it. If you knew Austin personally, you would love this book.

I had heard that the collection is now on display at a bank in Montana. As noted in my profile, I live in Florida, quite a "fur piece" from Montana, as my dad would have said. I've been there, camping and seeing the sights, two or three times. Most recently in 2006. I would like to get back up there and revisit some of the sites where I've been before, and maybe take in some I haven't seen. Mr. Monk's collection of old Sharps rifles would be on the list.

Again, thanks for your comments!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[waksupi]

@waksupi ,

Thank you for your comments. I read and research a lot and don't remember where I found out about that book. I looked it up and Amazon showed it as out of stock. I thought it might be out of print, but found Janet has a Facebook page. I contacted her via Facebook to ask if there might be an unsold copy somewhere. It turned out that she still has a bunch of them, but just forgot to "restock" the Amazon listing. The upshot was I had a copy in my hands within a week.

I never met Austin (or Janet), but I sure do like the book. The photographs are excellent, very professionally done, and Janet's commentaries about the guns and her dad are just a hoot to read. The commentaries are also very informative, regarding the histories of the different rifle models. Janet had a bunch of Austin's rifles "lettered," and the letters are shown in the book, in a clearly readable format. Janet claimed to know very little about firearms. I would disagree.

Anyway, Austin may have not been seen shooting a percussion Sharps, but he apparently owned at least one, a Model 1859 carbine in .52 caliber. It is shown and described on pages 22 and 23 of the book. There is a great story that goes with it. If you knew Austin personally, you would love this book.

I had heard that the collection is now on display at a bank in Montana. As noted in my profile, I live in Florida, quite a "fur piece" from Montana, as my dad would have said. I've been there, camping and seeing the sights, two or three times. Most recently in 2006. I would like to get back up there and revisit some of the sites where I've been before, and maybe take in some I haven't seen. Mr. Monk's collection of old Sharps rifles would be on the list.

Again, thanks for your comments!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I do have a copy of the book that Janet signed for me.
Funny story about Janet. The statute of limitations have passed, so I can tell it.
Their ranch is in a remote area around 60 miles west and north of Kalispell. It's where the old Hooterville long range matches were held.
Janet and her husband had been having troubles with a grizzly bear troubling their cattle. Fish and Game had been called multiple times, but their efforts to trap it had failed.
Janet came home one day, and found her husband had set up one of the Sharps on a rest, pointing out the kitchen window.
She didn't think much about it, rifles in the house being common.
She was putting away groceries, and looked out the window. There was the grizzly bear that had been troubling them.
She hunkered down behind the rifle, and killed the bear. She then went outside, started the tractor with a scoop on it, loaded the bear, and parked it in the barn.
When her husband got home, she sent him to the barn, to dig a hole and bury the bear.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I do have a copy of the book that Janet signed for me.
Funny story about Janet. The statute of limitations have passed, so I can tell it.
Their ranch is in a remote area around 60 miles west and north of Kalispell. It's where the old Hooterville long range matches were held.
Janet and her husband had been having troubles with a grizzly bear troubling their cattle. Fish and Game had been called multiple times, but their efforts to trap it had failed.
Janet came home one day, and found her husband had set up one of the Sharps on a rest, pointing out the kitchen window.
She didn't think much about it, rifles in the house being common.
She was putting away groceries, and looked out the window. There was the grizzly bear that had been troubling them.
She hunkered down behind the rifle, and killed the bear. She then went outside, started the tractor with a scoop on it, loaded the bear, and parked it in the barn.
When her husband got home, she sent him to the barn, to dig a hole and bury the bear.

There is a story in the book that is remarkably similar to that one in many respects, involving "a local rancher" who was not named...

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[59sharps]

2f can help in the way Charlie modifies his blocks. Larry says 2 or 3, doesn't matter with his method. Larry's and Charlie's methods are different. I tried both and got better accuracy and less fouling with 3f. YMMV.

The bullet I use is a straight up type of Christmas Tree and the mold was made by Old Fox Traders. Sadly, George is no longer in business due to health reasons even though there's still a link at this time through the N-SSA web page. My bullet is almost exactly the Moose Christmas Tree Ringtail with the exception that the "tail" isn't grooved to accept a tied cartridge. Mine is flat for a slip fit from Charlie's tubes.

Yea wish the moose mold was the same flat instead of the tie. I’m afraid to ask him to remove it. Had him remove the gas check from my RCBS 429-240-sil. Lost some accuracy.

 

[59sharps]

2f can help in the way Charlie modifies his blocks. Larry says 2 or 3, doesn't matter with his method. Larry's and Charlie's methods are different. I tried both and got better accuracy and less fouling with 3f. YMMV.

The bullet I use is a straight up type of Christmas Tree and the mold was made by Old Fox Traders. Sadly, George is no longer in business due to health reasons even though there's still a link at this time through the N-SSA web page. My bullet is almost exactly the Moose Christmas Tree Ringtail with the exception that the "tail" isn't grooved to accept a tied cartridge. Mine is flat for a slip fit from Charlie's tubes.

How is Larry’s different?
I had to add news paper to get moose’s to fit snug to Charlie’s tubes.

 

[dave951]

How is Larry’s different?
I had to add news paper to get moose’s to fit snug to Charlie’s tubes.

Larry's mod is to make a replacement plate for the original paper cutter. His plate is just shy of fitting to the bottom of the conant. To take up that little bit of space, he uses an O ring that the new plate rests on. When the gun is fired, pressure on the O ring forces the new plate against the breech. Simple, effective and reversible and I haven't seen any gas cutting issues anywhere on this system. I'll try to post some pix tonight.