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Some historical context concerning the Brown Bess musket

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Well, have to say you have me on that one. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure.

Gus

I came across what I think is a India (or third model) pattern Brown Bess lock with a detachable pan, reconversion maybe ? I’ve seen them with welded and brazed pans. Harry Schroeder of Butche’s antique gun parts makes reconversions parts, he said he’s never seen one with a detachable pan, he suggested homemade.
 
Great Topic and posts yourself, Dave.

I've read the highest number of Soldiers in the British Army worldwide between the FIW and AWI was something like 52,000 soldiers. However, almost HALF of those soldiers were stationed in Ireland and that meant the British Ordnance Board at Dublin Castle was responsible for arming and supplying them for "all things Ordnance."

GOOD GRIEF, that was a GIGANTIC burden on Dublin Castle considering how the British Ordnance Board at the Tower of London could call on so many gunsmiths in London and Birmingham. (I suspect the Ordnance Board at the Tower sometimes had to help them out, but I have no documentation to support that.) I'm sure that kept a whole lot of gunsmiths/arms workers and military factors/contractors employed there and in the City of Dublin, as well.

Gus
 
I have read that the crown recycled parts from older or broken muskets. Are there any historical weapons or writings to show this was the norm? What would or could be reused? Would these parts be repair parts or used in new production guns?
 
Now im not citing anything historical here but sure why not reuse good parts.
If a part fails, lock stock or barrel, reuse whats still serviceable and keep it going.

Think of when the US moved to caps, we didnt throw away the flinters, we converted them. Or after the civil war with the Allin conversions. We didnt used to be so wasteful as we are today and im sure the Brits and others were the same.

Just my thoughts.
 
Now im not citing anything historical here but sure why not reuse good parts.
If a part fails, lock stock or barrel, reuse whats still serviceable and keep it going.

Think of when the US moved to caps, we didnt throw away the flinters, we converted them. Or after the civil war with the Allin conversions. We didnt used to be so wasteful as we are today and im sure the Brits and others were the same.

Just my thoughts.

I’m not an expert on the British ordenance system for the Brown Bess, but the between some patterns the parts did say the same, such as side plates, trigger guards, nose caps and some rammer pipes. The 1755 lock was used From 1755 through 1769. Its possible there were surplus parts or it was easier to just use the same moulds from the prior patterns.
 
I know that British ordnance stored new date stamped locks to be installed when the stockers needed locks. The problem was when the new land pattern musket was issued with a lock dated several years in the past that it was determined unsuitable for use based on the year date stamped on the lock.
 
Hi,
They used old parts when needed. Sometimes older barrels were used and worn muzzles cut off shortening them. They also would sell old brass to foundries to be melted and reused in newer parts. The problem for British ordnance is there was little market for the older pattern muskets except for scrap metal. They used them up in service as much as they could and sold the rest mainly for scrap.

dave
 
Hi,
They used old parts when needed. Sometimes older barrels were used and worn muzzles cut off shortening them. They also would sell old brass to foundries to be melted and reused in newer parts. The problem for British ordnance is there was little market for the older pattern muskets except for scrap metal. They used them up in service as much as they could and sold the rest mainly for scrap.

dave
Any idea what the scrap yards did with them in the 18th century?
 
Now im not citing anything historical here but sure why not reuse good parts.
If a part fails, lock stock or barrel, reuse whats still serviceable and keep it going.

Think of when the US moved to caps, we didnt throw away the flinters, we converted them. Or after the civil war with the Allin conversions. We didnt used to be so wasteful as we are today and im sure the Brits and others were the same.

Just my thoughts.
Historic documentation backs up your thoughtful intuition in two major ways.

1. Repair/reclamation of Arms "in the field" by Regimental Artificers/Armorers. My first job in the modern Marine Corps was as a "Small Arms Repairman" or Armorer. The reason I mention this is because all the people in the Armed forces who do this job (no matter what their service calls it) have to be trained and be proficient in fixing a rather large number of small arms, BUT we were/are not gunsmiths, only "parts changers." In extended combat, we might have to cannibalize downed weapons systems to keep other systems going and sometimes come up with rather bizarre "field fixes" to keep those systems going, though we were not allowed to do major modifications.

British Regimental Artificers/Armorers had far fewer types of weapons to work on, BUT they were required to do more "gunsmithing" type of services to the arms while on campaign, especially when stationed far from home, as in the American Colonies or when on duty/war on the European Continent. Looking at the lists of tools sent with them, they were required to cut off barrels that burst or failed from BOTH ends, because some of tools sent were "britch taps" or taps to cut breech plug threads into barrels they had to cut off. (Somewhere I have period documentation they did this in America, though I can't quickly lay my hands on it right now.) I don't think they made new stocks when they did that, but glued in pieces of wood to stocks to fill gaps when needed. They cut off barrel muzzles when damaged or when arms were authorized to be shortened by local Army Commanders and we have documentation for that in the FIW and much less in the AWI. They usually had to move the front sight backwards on the forearm as well as any nose bands or nose caps on the weapons. There was no such thing as interchangeable parts to be a "parts changer" so the spare parts sent had to be hand fitted and hardened/annealed by them after fitting, when required. They also took arms that were damaged in service and if not repairable, would sometimes use the barrels or locks or stock furniture on other arms needing repairs. Now they weren't true gunsmiths because they did not MAKE barrels or lock parts, but came darn close to that level.

2. Reclamation of parts from old or damaged weapons by British Ordnance Artificers at the Tower or Dublin Castle. The brass furniture from broken arms, that could not be economically repaired, was NEVER sold as scrap. Instead, those parts were stripped and melted down to make new pattern parts. Brass was WAY too costly for most of the 18th century to have just sold it for scrap.

Damaged or sometimes foreign made Long Land Barrels were OFTEN used to make shorter barrel Sea Service Muskets. The best example of this I know of came from all the 15,000 "Dutch" Arms and 36,000 "Dutch" Barrels British Ordnance had been forced to buy in the first three years of The War of Jenkins's Ear in 1739 that morphed/continued into the War of the Austrian Succession from 1742-48 and known as King George's War here in North America. The winter of 1739-40 was so cold in England that it FROZE all the streams/rivers that gave water power to trip hammers and grinding wheels. So there was NO barrel production and a lesser amount of lock production at the very beginning of that war when they needed new arms production the most.

The 10,000 "Old Muskets" British Ordnance sent to the colonies in the FIW after Braddock's defeat almost certainly were from the 15,000 Dutch Muskets mentioned above. However, British Ordnance used all the barrels from those more damaged Dutch Muskets and damaged English made muskets with those Dutch barrels, to make shorter barrel Sea Service Arms well into the 1760's.

OK, so what did they do with the damaged Iron Barrels or pieces of barrels and Iron lock parts that could not be repaired? (They DID NOT throw away even the cut off pieces of damaged barrels.) If they could use them for something else by re-forging the Iron parts, they did, or sold what they couldn't use for scrap iron.

OK, what about damaged or old pattern stocks they could no longer use? Remember, these were made mostly from European Walnut with some exceptions of Dutch made stocks, but not always. I can't document this, but having studied British Ordnance, I bet they used the wood for hand tools and tool handles and only burnt the unusable wood in fireplaces to keep the workers warm in winter.

There is a great story about an Ordnance Worker who got caught taking three broken bayonets from the Tower in I think the 1760's. When hauled in front of the magistrate, he claimed they were of no value to the Ordnance Department because they were broken and his intention was to make some tools from the steel blades, though the story does not say those tools were going to be used at the Tower. The Tower actually did use broken bayonet blades to make some hand tools at times, but since he got caught outside the workshops, the Magistrate fined and jailed him.

Bottom line, British Ordnance had one heck of a program of parts reclamation or reuse.

Gus
 
Hi Gus,
You are bang on about brass. Brass prices went through the roof after 1780 or so because the British navy figured out how to sheath their ship's hulls in copper and developed a bronze alloy bolt or nail that could hold it in place without corroding away. The demand for copper sky rocketed with prices more than doubling.
https://www.winton.com/longer-view/copper-bottomed-booms-and-busts
dave
 
Hi Gus,
You are bang on about brass. Brass prices went through the roof after 1780 or so because the British navy figured out how to sheath their ship's hulls in copper and developed a bronze alloy bolt or nail that could hold it in place without corroding away. The demand for copper sky rocketed with prices more than doubling.
https://www.winton.com/longer-view/copper-bottomed-booms-and-busts
dave

Hi Dave,

Brass was also very expensive in England for the first half of the 18th century as well. This because the higher grades of copper ore that were able to be surface mined had pretty much dried up two to three centuries before. So England was forced to buy most of their copper and brass from the continent.

Then in the early 18th century, the Welsh came up with a new smelting process to economically smelt lower grades of copper, this became known as the Swansea process in your link. In the 1740's, new technology was invented for water pumps for deep hole mining that began to be used for copper mines late in that decade. By the 1750's with both of these new technologies, England began producing large quantities of Copper and then brass for the first time in centuries. This meant a big reduction in the price of copper until as your link pointed out, it began to be used to sheath ship hulls in the 1780's.

Gus
 
Great Topic and posts yourself, Dave.

I've read the highest number of Soldiers in the British Army worldwide between the FIW and AWI was something like 52,000 soldiers. However, almost HALF of those soldiers were stationed in Ireland and that meant the British Ordnance Board at Dublin Castle was responsible for arming and supplying them for "all things Ordnance."

GOOD GRIEF, that was a GIGANTIC burden on Dublin Castle considering how the British Ordnance Board at the Tower of London could call on so many gunsmiths in London and Birmingham. (I suspect the Ordnance Board at the Tower sometimes had to help them out, but I have no documentation to support that.) I'm sure that kept a whole lot of gunsmiths/arms workers and military factors/contractors employed there and in the City of Dublin, as well.

Gus
The cable series "Outlander" has nice looking troops; very authentic period atmosphere; I'm waiting for some 'nit picker' to say that the Besses aren't perfect replica Dublin Castles! :)
 
Okay-
Friends,
First, I’ve been lurking for about 2 years and am overjoyed to read so much insight about Brown Bess production & issue.
As soon as I can figure out how to do it, I’ll post pics of a “Redden” lock-marked Longland with white metal furniture which sits languishing at a museum where I volunteer (stock is totally drying up because 1970’s exhibit with no care since).

Washington & Forbes Papers spend a good bit of energy on the efforts to reclaim & repiece the Brown Besses owned by Virginia in 1758. Between stock damage due to improper shipment, locks which needed reworking, improperly fitted bayonets, and just the general tendency of stuff to go wrong, a team of armorers and contract workers had to be hired at Winchester Virginia to get 2,000 Besses (and probably some Dutch muskets) into the field.
Washington picks off the immediately serviceable weapons for his Virginia Provincial regiment as it rerecruits for the 1758 Campaign Season, but Colonel Byrd’s 2d Virginia is hard-put to field with weapons, even with Besses borrowed from Maryland.

Correspondence during the Rev War indicates that as the French shipments hit Washington’s Army, Virginia requests the Besses being given up by brigades switching over to French muskets.
At Fort Laurens, a garrison fort built in late 1778 & Abandoned in 1779 by 13thVirginia, rifle parts, 1741 Dutch Musket parts and Bess parts emerged. A ridiculous amount of .69 ball was recovered.
I’ll post everything I can as soon as I figure out how.
 
So- totally related & unrelated questions (obvious newb to this board)
1-Other than Wilson, were there major commercial shipments from Brown Bess makers to North America 1750-1770?
2-Given that Track has stopped selling their LLP kits & TRS is what it is (magnificent, but ungainly), what do you advise guys trying to accurately interpret 1774-1778 with Besses to do?
(I’m actually okay myself, one TRS kit gun “Wooldridge” & one Track “Willits”. Not blown away by either lock marking, but I’ll certainly survive.)

Can/should the Miroku & Pedersoli beaters out there get turned into something vaguely accurate, or are my buddies doomed?

Help!
Dave Barno
Out in Ohio
 
Great educational posts, Dave. I see a thread in what you say that tells us there seldom was just one style BB. Variations were rampant.
We often see criticism of the Italian made Pedersoli replica BBs. I had one for many years and understand the critiques that it "ain't authentic". However, I always felt it was a good representation of a BB. I gave talks and presentation about the Rev. Rifleman for many years. I used a BB in the presentation to show the difference between a musket of the day and a rifle. Unlikely it ever would have made a difference to any in my many audiences if the drop of the stock or stamp on the lock was a tiny bit different. They saw and had an opportunity to understand the arms of the time.
I tend to believe that “the big things are the little details”. Even something as simple as filing off “blackpowder only” markings or adding a a warehouse stamp to the stock gives a whole new avenue of interpretation options.
To be honest, after 40 years of supporting and participation in living history, the folks who recognize an off-the-rack repro but might engage in conversation tend to wander off with a blank look and vague smile.
They figure they’ve already been written off as having nothing much too add & very little to ask.
I generally help sites by cleaning the bathrooms & emptying trash. Nobody tends to see “the help”, so I can hear much of what I’m not doing right as I slog off to the dumpsters with a 50 gallon trash bag or as I clean the bathroom sinks for the 15th time that weekend.
The best interpretation I see includes “here’s the barriers of what we can present right now, but in the future, we may be able to present on this topic”.
For years, I didn’t realize that I could connect 18thC artifact knowledge to the rusty manure in the museums where I volunteered. I now am amazed by how much excitement I missed in trying to talk about a Miroku while standing in front of actual musket parts from Fort Necessity or Braddock’s Defeat.

Dave
 
The Redden. I’ll get more pics when I volunteer next weekend.

Thanks!
Dave
 

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Hi Dave,
The lock is marked "William Predden" . You miss the "P" because it is hidden behind the flintcock. There is an almost identical example in the George Neumann collection at Valley Forge National Historical Park. Predden was a contractor to British Ordnance during 1693-1720. The gun in question probably was made in 1715 or so. It predates the "King's Pattern" that we come to call the Brown Bess. These guns have strong Dutch influence.

dave
 
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