Smokleless in cannon??

[Darkgael]

On another forum, there is a post by a fellow in which he mentions that, in addition to BP, he has used Red Dot (25 grs.) and Blue Dot in his cannon.
Is that a safe practice? Are there cannons rated for smokeless propellants?
Pete

 

[bingo1952]

In a word, NO!

 

[Charles D. Prokopp]

Is that person trying to win a Darwin Award? :shocked2:

 

[mazo kid]

I hope someone puts him straight on that "other forum" before he kills/injures himself or others!

 

[bwhoffman]

On another forum, there is a post by a fellow in which he mentions that, in addition to BP, he has used Red Dot (25 grs.) and Blue Dot in his cannon.
Is that a safe practice? Are there cannons rated for smokeless propellants?
Pete

Personally, I value my life and those of any bystanders way more than that!

sorta like using gasoline to start your BBQ or camp fire :nono:

 

Rifleshooter's post Review of a Cannon Accident has a link to a report by the Oregon Fatality Assessment and Control Evaluation (FACE) Program.

One of the reasons for that cannon's failure was the use of FFFg. The following is taken from that report.

The black powder used was usually a cannon grade, but at times camp staff would use finer, faster-burning grades intended for black-powder muskets and rifles if cannon-grade powder was not available. On the evening of this incident, a finer-grade powder (FFFg) was used to charge the cannon.

The use of FFFg, rather than the normal Fg Cannon grade resulted in higher pressures, which combined with other factors blew the tube to smithereens and resulted in loss of life for a young camper.

On another forum, there is a post by a fellow in which he mentions that, in addition to BP, he has used Red Dot (25 grs.) and Blue Dot in his cannon.
Is that a safe practice? Are there cannons rated for smokeless propellants?
Pete

Were I to witness someone performing such a practice, I would spike the their tube with a maul and a cut nail. Then take the maul to the muzzle of the piece. For in my opinion it is a catastrophe in the waiting.

Certified Cannoneer, Commonwealth of Massachusetts

 

[TheDoubleD]

Actually yes you can shoot smokeless powder in cannons. Cannons made for and with steel intended for such use. Modern artillery of course is smokeless powder artillery. But this isn't what we are talking aobut here.

But the cannons we talk about and shoot here are intended for black powder and absolutely should not be used with smokeless.

Such action is foolhardy at the politest.

 

[Darkgael]

If you are interested, the link to the thread is: http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000118.html
The thread started out as a discussion of BP and its subs in a pistol. The posts about the cannons are at the end of the thread.
I'd as soon not quote other folk but the thread is public.
Pete

 

[TheDoubleD]

Pete, you didn't say he was a brain surgeon also.

2.5 inch side walls 1 inch at muzzle. 2 1/2 bore in cold rolled steel...why do I have a hard time believing what he's writing?

 

[Darkgael]

DD: You have way more familiarity with metals and what's available than I. I gather that those specs are unusual.
And smokeless in a T/C muzzleloader......
Pete

 

Actually yes you can shoot smokeless powder in cannons. Cannons made for and with steel intended for such use. Modern artillery of course is smokeless powder artillery. But this isn't what we are talking aobut here.

But the cannons we talk about and shoot here are intended for black powder and absolutely should not be used with smokeless.

Such action is foolhardy at the politest.

1.] Such cannons are not readily available for the general public.

2.] Such Cannons require special licenses to own and discharge.

3.] Its scary enough that hobbyists are making scores of cannons without a thought as to the proper metalurgy need to produce a safe tube.

Such action is moronic at the politest.

CP

 

[TheDoubleD]

Pete, something about what or the way the guy wrote just set off my BS alarm...

 

[Dphar]

On another forum, there is a post by a fellow in which he mentions that, in addition to BP, he has used Red Dot (25 grs.) and Blue Dot in his cannon.
Is that a safe practice? Are there cannons rated for smokeless propellants?
Pete

Find out where he is an make sure you are not ever on the same range with his cannon (bomb?). I have not the slightest idea why anyone would do this.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

If you are interested, the link to the thread is: http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000118.html
The thread started out as a discussion of BP and its subs in a pistol. The posts about the cannons are at the end of the thread.
I'd as soon not quote other folk but the thread is public.
Pete

What you have in some of the posts at this link is idiots who have not the slightest idea what they are doing.

In a 1.5-2.5" bore cannon even FG is too fast (at least marginal in the smaller bore). It is possible to overpressure these things with blanks with too fast powder. Then they make them of cold rolled. Its just unbelievable.
FG is probably about 2-3 times faster in burn rate than Cannon. Shooting FG in a full size cannon is like shooting Red Dot or Blue Dot in a 30-06 or 300 mag. But then some fool is using this in his "cannon"...
I have a policy. If they shoot cannons I go hide in the parking lot till its over. The reasons are spelled out in the linked posts, what I have written here and the sheer stupidity I see when people load a cannon to make a big "bang". I have all the experience with shrapnel I need.
I am constantly amazed someone has not been killed...

Dan

 

[Darkgael]

Dan: "Then they make them of cold rolled"
I'm trying to learn more about this. Is there a problem with using cold rolled steel in general or is it with people's reliance on it as a fudge for safe practice?
Pete

 

[John Taylor]

There are many cold rolled steels, even 12L14 is cold rolled which is the type of steel that most muzzle loading barrel are made from. I talked with several barrel makers of modern barrel and they are coming down on the hardness of the 4140 from Rockwell C32 to around C28. The beleife is that it is better to have the metal expand rather than burst. This chart shows a bit of the cold rolled steel on the market.
* Commercial Steel (CS Type B). May be moderately formed; a specimen cut in any direction can be bent flat on itself without cracking.
* Drawing Steel (DS Type B). DS Type B is made by adding aluminum to the mol steel and may be used in drawing applications.
* Extra Deep Drawing Steel (EDDS). Interstitial Free (I-F) steels are made Drawing Steel by adding titanium and/or niobium to the molten steel after vacuum degassing and offer excellent drawability.
* Extra Deep Drawing Steel Plus (EDDS+). Interstitial Free (I-F) steels are made by adding titanium and/or niobium to the molten steel after vacuum degassing and offer excellent drawability.

IMHO it is better to use a mild steel that will expand with an overload rather than burst like cast iron. This is why most of the cast barrels today have a steel liner. Using a hard steel that can be brittle is just as bad as using cast iron. Mild steel may split if loaded to heavy but it is less likely to throw shrapnel like cast iron or hardened steel. The old frag grenades where made from cast iron, not steel.

 

There are many cold rolled steels, even 12L14 is cold rolled which is the type of steel that most muzzle loading barrel are made from. I talked with several barrel makers of modern barrel and they are coming down on the hardness of the 4140 from Rockwell C32 to around C28. The beleife is that it is better to have the metal expand rather than burst. This chart shows a bit of the cold rolled steel on the market.

IMHO it is better to use a mild steel that will expand with an overload rather than burst like cast iron. This is why most of the cast barrels today have a steel liner. Using a hard steel that can be brittle is just as bad as using cast iron. Mild steel may split if loaded to heavy but it is less likely to throw shrapnel like cast iron or hardened steel. The old frag grenades where made from cast iron, not steel.

I had a very similar conversation on another forum. I sounded the alarm when the idea of using 1144 Stressproof for the making ofhandgonnes. One major problem with stressproof is micro fractures that can occur. It can be as brittle as glass.

CP

 

[keith44]

:shocked2:
I just read through that thread, I believe what we are discussing here is a self correcting problem. I just hope no innocents are in the way.

Keith

 

[ghostsix]

Mine are cast with 1/4"steel liners.
I have a 2 lb. and a 3 lb.
They were made by the guy in South Bend who made the cannon for Williamsburg. His name escapes me at the moment.
But you will know it.

 

[juancho]

I cannot recall were it was, but I saw pictures of modrern cannons (circa 1917) being made by sleeves over sleeves.All machined under size and shrink fitted over one another of increasing diameter.At the breach there was a section that was winded with very hard piano wire or the like,and a sleeve fitted over top.Aparently that was the section with the highest pressure.
All of this would create ginormous pressure on the inner tube,such ,that when fired, the innner pressure would ballance out with the pressure from the outter sleeves.Creating a state of "nearly neutral" stress on such inner tube.
For what I remember, the wall thickness at the breach was bigger than the bore of that particular gun.
I always wanted to make such a gun for black powder.I have to assume that such thing would be safe even at max service loads.