Shot my first duplex loads yesterday in my .54-caliber flintlock

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GAHUNTER60

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I`m into my last two pounds of Goex 2f, and have about 1-1/2 pounds of Schuetzen 3f on the shelf. My rifle does not shoot the 3f nearly as well as the 2f, so I use the 2f almost exclusively at club matches and when deer hunting.

Unfortunately, my Kibler Colonial likes loads on the heavy side. My best groups are fired utilizing 100 grains of powder, and since I'm a guy with a very competitive personality, this has become both my hunting and competition load. The downside, of course, is instead of getting 140 shots out of a pound of powder (using 50 grains per shot), I only get 70 at 100 grains. That means I use a half-pound, minimum, at a typical club match, and sometimes, depending on the match, more!

You don't have to have my superior Alabama education to figure out that I'll soon be out of powder!

So far, the only 2f I've found in stock online is Schuetzen. My rifle (and me -- or is it "I") don't like Schuetzen. Every time I've used it. it's like someone poured coal dust down my barrel mixed with glue. That stuff is NASTY!

I'd like to try Swiss 2f, but every time I read where someone has some in stock, it's gone by the time I get a bank loan to pay the hazmat and shipping fees. So I've decided to become a powder hoarder until the supply crisis loosens up. This means I'll have to find alternatives to my regular routine if I intend to keep shooting at the pace I have in the past -- and I do intend to do just such!

This leads me to the point of this post. Yesterday I loaded up 10 test tubes with 10 grains of Schuetzen 3f, and 10 more with 80 grains of 777 black powder substitute, which is readily available locally. I have always preferred 777 over Pyrodex when using BP substitutes in my percussion guns, as it burns cleaner and seems to shoot more accurately. Of course, there is no way I'd use either one in a flintlock, as they are both very difficult to ignite. I have read right here on these pages, however, that you can drop 5 or 10 grains of real black powder down the barrel as a starter load, followed by whatever BP substitute you want to use, and get acceptable performance. I chose 80 grains of 777 because, in my experience with my percussion rifles, it burns a little hotter than true black powder, and I figured the 80 grain 777, plus 10 grain 3f duplex would give me about the same velocity as my 100-grain 2f load. So I headed to the range to give her a go.

First, I fired a five-shot group at 80 yards (my zero yardage) with 100 grains of my precious Goex 2f. As per usual, I shot about a 3-1/2 inch group off the bench. I then cleaned the barrel and tried the 3f Schuetzen/80 grain 777 duplex load. Upon pulling the trigger, I noticed ignition on par with my slowest pure black powder ignition. My ball, out of the clean barrel, struck the target exactly on the same elevation as the BP load, but was maybe three inches further right. Subsequent shots produced the same result as far as ignition (ever-so-slightly slower than pure black), but the holes in the target mixed right in to the 100-grain, pure black powder loads.

I called the experiment a success!

Next week, I'll up the BP starter load to 15 grains and lower the 777 to 75 grains to see if the increased volume of black makes a difference with ignition speed. At any rate, my next club match will be shot with duplex loads as I save my true black powder for hunting season -- or the zombie apocalypse -- which ever comes first!
 

Siringo

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I have done the same using Pyrodex too. Mostly because I have a couple of bottles and I can use them up for plinking. In my limited use of T7, there is a significant velocity increase.

I too have Kibler is 54. It settles down and makes make nice groups with 100 grains of Goex 2F. With Old Enysford 2F it’s 90 grains. All of my slow twist 54’s (swamped or not) follow the same pattern.
 

GAHUNTER60

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I have done the same using Pyrodex too. Mostly because I have a couple of bottles and I can use them up for plinking. In my limited use of T7, there is a significant velocity increase.

I too have Kibler is 54. It settles down and makes make nice groups with 100 grains of Goex 2F. With Old Enysford 2F it’s 90 grains. All of my slow twist 54’s (swamped or not) follow the same pattern.

I figure that when (or if) I ever get any Swiss 2f, I'll settle on 90 grains as my load due to the Swiss stuff burning significantly hotter (they say on par with the 777 BP substitute). I saw one published test online where 90 grains of Swiss produced 200 fps, on average, more velocity in a .54 caliber rifle than the Goex, and 250 fps more than Scheutzen.
 
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I played with duplex loads (Pyrodex RS and P with 4f and 3f) when I first got my GPR flint. They seemed to work fine although my tests were far from scientific. I am shooting my percussion rifles more now and considering trying musket nipples and caps with Pyrodex. I have laid in musket nipples for a T/C and CVA and have plenty of musket caps. I am not that short on 2f and 3f, but kinda want to shoot up some old Pyrodex too.
 

Siringo

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I figure that when (or if) I ever get any Swiss 2f, I'll settle on 90 grains as my load due to the Swiss stuff burning significantly hotter (they say on par with the 777 BP substitute). I saw one published test online where 90 grains of Swiss produced 200 fps, on average, more velocity in a .54 caliber rifle than the Goex, and 250 fps more than Scheutzen.
Swiss is hot stuff. I have had to use backer patches to prevent patch blowout. Or use a pinch of wasp nest on top of the powder.
 

Notchy Bob

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Good post, @GAHUNTER60. Knowledgeable and objective. I'll look forward to reading of your next range test, with the different proportions. It would be great if those loads could be chronographed.

I don't think it would make any difference in velocity or point of impact, and probably not in lock time, but I'm curious... what do you use for priming your pan?

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 

Stykbow

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I played with duplex loads (Pyrodex RS and P with 4f and 3f) when I first got my GPR flint. They seemed to work fine although my tests were far from scientific. I am shooting my percussion rifles more now and considering trying musket nipples and caps with Pyrodex. I have laid in musket nipples for a T/C and CVA and have plenty of musket caps. I am not that short on 2f and 3f, but kinda want to shoot up some old Pyrodex too.
I wouldn’t even worry with musket caps. I shoot nothing but Pyrodex RS in mine with regular old CCI caps. Goes bang every time.
 
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Sam Fadala recommended these type loads for use with pyrodex 40+ years ago.
This helped ignition some but,in those days Black powder was easy to get and
it wasn't worth the hassle in loading. With powder harder to get it is coming back
into use. Some call it a kicker load. Powder makers, at one time gave instructions
on doing it. Our hope is that good supply of real BP will return soon.
 

GAHUNTER60

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With my TC Hawken, when using 777, I was getting ignition every bit as slow as my slowest ignition with my flintlock. I like 777 because it is relatively clean burning when compared with Pyrodex, but I couldn't live with hang-fires! Someone on here suggested I switch out my #11 nipple for a musket cap nipple, and voila, problem solved! Ignition is as fast as an Inline using a 209 primer.

BTW, to answer the question, I'm using 4f Goex in my pan. With my Kibler round faced English lock, ignition is very quick! Did I mention that I love this rifle?
 
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One thing you have to do is get the FFF load absolutely in the same place every time otherwise you will get uneven ignition of the 777 . This is where a patent breach is helpful in getting everything lined up . A loading tube is useful in these circumstances .
 
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I`m into my last two pounds of Goex 2f, and have about 1-1/2 pounds of Schuetzen 3f on the shelf. My rifle does not shoot the 3f nearly as well as the 2f, so I use the 2f almost exclusively at club matches and when deer hunting.

Unfortunately, my Kibler Colonial likes loads on the heavy side. My best groups are fired utilizing 100 grains of powder, and since I'm a guy with a very competitive personality, this has become both my hunting and competition load. The downside, of course, is instead of getting 140 shots out of a pound of powder (using 50 grains per shot), I only get 70 at 100 grains. That means I use a half-pound, minimum, at a typical club match, and sometimes, depending on the match, more!

You don't have to have my superior Alabama education to figure out that I'll soon be out of powder!

So far, the only 2f I've found in stock online is Schuetzen. My rifle (and me -- or is it "I") don't like Schuetzen. Every time I've used it. it's like someone poured coal dust down my barrel mixed with glue. That stuff is NASTY!

I'd like to try Swiss 2f, but every time I read where someone has some in stock, it's gone by the time I get a bank loan to pay the hazmat and shipping fees. So I've decided to become a powder hoarder until the supply crisis loosens up. This means I'll have to find alternatives to my regular routine if I intend to keep shooting at the pace I have in the past -- and I do intend to do just such!

This leads me to the point of this post. Yesterday I loaded up 10 test tubes with 10 grains of Schuetzen 3f, and 10 more with 80 grains of 777 black powder substitute, which is readily available locally. I have always preferred 777 over Pyrodex when using BP substitutes in my percussion guns, as it burns cleaner and seems to shoot more accurately. Of course, there is no way I'd use either one in a flintlock, as they are both very difficult to ignite. I have read right here on these pages, however, that you can drop 5 or 10 grains of real black powder down the barrel as a starter load, followed by whatever BP substitute you want to use, and get acceptable performance. I chose 80 grains of 777 because, in my experience with my percussion rifles, it burns a little hotter than true black powder, and I figured the 80 grain 777, plus 10 grain 3f duplex would give me about the same velocity as my 100-grain 2f load. So I headed to the range to give her a go.

First, I fired a five-shot group at 80 yards (my zero yardage) with 100 grains of my precious Goex 2f. As per usual, I shot about a 3-1/2 inch group off the bench. I then cleaned the barrel and tried the 3f Schuetzen/80 grain 777 duplex load. Upon pulling the trigger, I noticed ignition on par with my slowest pure black powder ignition. My ball, out of the clean barrel, struck the target exactly on the same elevation as the BP load, but was maybe three inches further right. Subsequent shots produced the same result as far as ignition (ever-so-slightly slower than pure black), but the holes in the target mixed right in to the 100-grain, pure black powder loads.

I called the experiment a success!

Next week, I'll up the BP starter load to 15 grains and lower the 777 to 75 grains to see if the increased volume of black makes a difference with ignition speed. At any rate, my next club match will be shot with duplex loads as I save my true black powder for hunting season -- or the zombie apocalypse -- which ever comes first!
I was at a trail walk last summer
And had a cap fire with no powder ignition. One of the other shooters suggested the same idea and bingo! No more false shots!!
 
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I`m into my last two pounds of Goex 2f, and have about 1-1/2 pounds of Schuetzen 3f on the shelf. My rifle does not shoot the 3f nearly as well as the 2f, so I use the 2f almost exclusively at club matches and when deer hunting.

Unfortunately, my Kibler Colonial likes loads on the heavy side. My best groups are fired utilizing 100 grains of powder, and since I'm a guy with a very competitive personality, this has become both my hunting and competition load. The downside, of course, is instead of getting 140 shots out of a pound of powder (using 50 grains per shot), I only get 70 at 100 grains. That means I use a half-pound, minimum, at a typical club match, and sometimes, depending on the match, more!

You don't have to have my superior Alabama education to figure out that I'll soon be out of powder!

So far, the only 2f I've found in stock online is Schuetzen. My rifle (and me -- or is it "I") don't like Schuetzen. Every time I've used it. it's like someone poured coal dust down my barrel mixed with glue. That stuff is NASTY!

I'd like to try Swiss 2f, but every time I read where someone has some in stock, it's gone by the time I get a bank loan to pay the hazmat and shipping fees. So I've decided to become a powder hoarder until the supply crisis loosens up. This means I'll have to find alternatives to my regular routine if I intend to keep shooting at the pace I have in the past -- and I do intend to do just such!

This leads me to the point of this post. Yesterday I loaded up 10 test tubes with 10 grains of Schuetzen 3f, and 10 more with 80 grains of 777 black powder substitute, which is readily available locally. I have always preferred 777 over Pyrodex when using BP substitutes in my percussion guns, as it burns cleaner and seems to shoot more accurately. Of course, there is no way I'd use either one in a flintlock, as they are both very difficult to ignite. I have read right here on these pages, however, that you can drop 5 or 10 grains of real black powder down the barrel as a starter load, followed by whatever BP substitute you want to use, and get acceptable performance. I chose 80 grains of 777 because, in my experience with my percussion rifles, it burns a little hotter than true black powder, and I figured the 80 grain 777, plus 10 grain 3f duplex would give me about the same velocity as my 100-grain 2f load. So I headed to the range to give her a go.

First, I fired a five-shot group at 80 yards (my zero yardage) with 100 grains of my precious Goex 2f. As per usual, I shot about a 3-1/2 inch group off the bench. I then cleaned the barrel and tried the 3f Schuetzen/80 grain 777 duplex load. Upon pulling the trigger, I noticed ignition on par with my slowest pure black powder ignition. My ball, out of the clean barrel, struck the target exactly on the same elevation as the BP load, but was maybe three inches further right. Subsequent shots produced the same result as far as ignition (ever-so-slightly slower than pure black), but the holes in the target mixed right in to the 100-grain, pure black powder loads.

I called the experiment a success!

Next week, I'll up the BP starter load to 15 grains and lower the 777 to 75 grains to see if the increased volume of black makes a difference with ignition speed. At any rate, my next club match will be shot with duplex loads as I save my true black powder for hunting season -- or the zombie apocalypse -- which ever comes first!
Nice work- up. That’s a good report!
 
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I figure that when (or if) I ever get any Swiss 2f, I'll settle on 90 grains as my load due to the Swiss stuff burning significantly hotter (they say on par with the 777 BP substitute). I saw one published test online where 90 grains of Swiss produced 200 fps, on average, more velocity in a .54 caliber rifle than the Goex, and 250 fps more than Scheutzen.
Now when people are talking about Swiss there’s Swiss and then there’s Swiss Caviar. Both are rocket fuel and clean. Caviar is the premier Swiss powder. What are the Swiss users mostly using I was wondering.
 
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So far, the only 2f I've found in stock online is Schuetzen. My rifle (and me -- or is it "I") don't like Schuetzen. Every time I've used it. it's like someone poured coal dust down my barrel mixed with glue. That stuff is NASTY!

I'd like to try Swiss 2f, but every time I read where someone has some in stock, it's gone by the time I get a bank loan to pay the hazmat and shipping fees. So I've decided to become a powder hoarder until the supply crisis loosens up.
Nasty is putting it lightly LOL

SWISS 2F in stock here:
F8B62D3D-6C35-4EE4-AB85-180E6B7FAC6F.png
3FCBAFC5-AC54-4571-A5E9-12646252BF39.png


Unfortunately the hazmat is expensive it seems with this business FedEx is the only option for Hazmat delivery
 

ltdann

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Scheutzen powder IS filthy....whew....it's not just me. If i get 2 shots off w/o swabbing I'm lucky.
 

jdw276

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I have been experimenting with home brew bp. Have not been liking the delay or lack of pop in it in my flinter. Goes off but slow and no real bang. So put 10gr of 2f ole eye first and 90 grain of home brew. I get the bang now and more of a push. Still working on everything but it takes up some time in the day making, researching and thinking. We gotta do what we gotta do to keep a shootin.
 
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