Serpentine powder and handgonnes.

[Matt Maier]

I recently worked up a CAD model of the Tannenberg handgonne, and I noticed an interesting design feature. In addition to the main bore, there was a much narrower bore which was meant to serve as a powder chamber. This got me to thinking why it was designed that way. Did it have to do with the way 14th century gunpowders behaved in comparison to granulated powder? I know that serpentine (I presume that is what gunners used in the 14th century) burns much more slowly than corned powder. How were these boomsticks loaded? Was it required to seat the ball tightly on top of the powder and compress it as we do with modern powder?

 

[Musketeer]

I recall reading that serpentine was apparently pretty weak compared to later corned/granulated powder and thus required a decent amount to get any serious power, so they made the long, thin powder chamber that could be filled with enough serpentine to get the job done, while leaving the barrel walls along the length of the chamber beefy for safety. I guess it wasn't uncommon for early gonners to blow their pieces up, and it appears the Tannenberg was made in an attempt to alleviate that as much as possible.

I don't recall exactly, but I believe the original Tannenberg's powder chamber held something like 90 grains of powder (by our modern reckoning), and it was likely filled all the way up, then the ball seated firmly on top with no gap. If one were to make a modern Tannenberg with the same dimensions of the original and wanted to shoot less than what could be fit into the powder chamber, I would suggest doing like we do with cap and ball revolvers and loading in a reduced powder charge, filling the remaining volume of the chamber with filler (cornmeal, Cream of Wheat, etc.), then seating the ball on top of that so there would be no air space.

 

[Melchi577]

its currently thought that the chamber was partly filled with the very slow burning powder of the time, the larger guns had a wooden bung inserted in the end of the chamber then the projectile on top (so possibly this size of gun as well) this arrangement allowed enough pressure to build up to usefully fire the projectile.
obviously attempts to replicate this with modern powder probably won't end well.
i think there was an article about it in one of the ordinance society journals will try to find time later and have a look.

 

[Musketeer]

Interesting. That does make sense (giving the weak powder some air space to build up pressure). I haven't read anything on gonnes in many years, so my memory of the material is very likely not reliable. In any case, I definitely agree on not partially loading such a powder chamber today with modern powder.

 

[Melchi577]

there has been a lot of research in the last few years into the earlier guns Publications is well worth a look

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FYI, that ‘Publications’ link that Melchi577 posted above is that of The Ordnance Society, a UK-based group (Founded 1986) publishing a journal and articles on Ordnance and Artillery of all types and ages.

It looks to be a pretty good read! Thanks for providing that link.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Serpentine powder, being powder rather than grains, does not work well if compressed, so the chamber was for the powder, and the 'step' in the bore stopped the ball going back further and prevented compression.
In use, the chamber would be filled with serpentine, then a ball rammed down, but as I say, not compressing the powder.

all best,
Richard.

 

[BillinOregon]

Nice CAD drawings. Boy I'd like to have a replica of that gonne.

 

[mlshooter]

There is a very good description of handgonne ballistics and serpentine powder in this web site.

Handgonnes

I believe the author is deceased, but his web site has been largely archived.
A very good reference.

 

[Melchi577]

i strongly recommend mlshooter's link above, there is a lot of excellent information not just on hand guns but also on blackpowder itself

 

[sgtsquid]

Serpentine powder, being powder rather than grains, does not work well if compressed, so the chamber was for the powder, and the 'step' in the bore stopped the ball going back further and prevented compression.
In use, the chamber would be filled with serpentine, then a ball rammed down, but as I say, not compressing the powder.

all best,
Richard.

I found a web site a long time ago where someone tested 2 copies of the Tannenberg Gonne, with 2 different configurations. One with the chamber and one with a straight bore. He thought the shape of the chamber aided in rapid ignition buy allowing compression heating to ignite all of the powder at once, but I think your explanantion makes sense as well. I have a copy of the Tannenberg gonne that I built a few years ago, and (ahem) "aquired" some serpentine powder powder from a medieval recipe. The sound is more of a sharp "crack" instead of the deeper "boom" of modern BP.

It looks like the site is down. All I could find was a few references to it on other sites.

 

[sgtsquid]

Here's mine that I build a few years ago. I turned the barrel from 932 bronze and finished the flats with a file, as I think the original was done. The tiller is red oak finished with linseed oil. I added the serpentine about two years ago. Now that I have a lathe again, I might make a few more handgonnes.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Awesome work guys!

The other day at my rifle range, we started our annual Winter military surplus rifle shoot. Before the match commenced, we always start out with a recording of the Star-Spangled Banner, as we salute the flag.

Then they let me take the 1st shot of the day using my ‘hand gonne’ copy of the Tannenberg piece. It was quite the hit, no pun intended ... but that is about the only time they want any Black Powdah smoke near their line shoots, LOL!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Very pleased on All counts, Flint!!

 

[Matt Maier]

The sound is more of a sharp "crack" instead of the deeper "boom" of modern BP.

A friend sent me a video of himself shooting a replica handgonne with serpentine. For a brief moment, I thought it sounded like a model rocket engine.

 

[Rudyard]

A Mr Brad Spear used to offer the Morko gun the one with the bearded head cast in Bronze Nice things . he used to do the SCA circuit lived in Florida had a styalized rat trade mark . Ulrich ? from Switzerland did the demo videoes or articles . interesting post Rudyard

 

[Darto]

One of my favorite gun books of many is this one. Somewhere I read it was one of the first 'modern' gun books published after 1950, or something like that which had lots of good pictures. I'm not sure what that was all about.

Well the pictures are all old woodcuts but done in large format and as interesting as the text.
https://www.amazon.com/Age-Firearms-Pictorial-History/dp/B000RH13HK/
Unlike many history of guns books which quickly move on to flintlocks, this one is 95% about pre flintlocks and only about 10 pages at the end for guns later than matchlocks.

The first edition (which I have not seen) was published in 1957 and is hardback.
https://www.amazon.com/age-firearms-pictorial-history/dp/B0006AULI0/

 

[Rudyard]

This post seem out of the blue & old still interesting just seems no additional page to it.
Rudyard

 

[cw1873]

Thanks for the book tip Darto, I ordered one of the hardback editions.

 

[rickystl]

Yes, I ordered also. Don't know how I missed this one. Thanks.

Rick