Serious problem...need advice

[riverrat43]

Don't want to start a flame war..not mentioning names but I could use some opinions. If this is inappropriate mods, feel free to delete it. Back in August ”˜06 I saw a gun I liked advertised for sale. I emailed the builder for more pictures and upon seeing additional pictures, saw something I didn’t like, (on this particular gun, the barrel protruded about two inches past the end of the stock and it had no nose cap) and told the builder thanks but no thanks. And why. He asked that I call him and he’d quote me a price on building exactly what I wanted. I did so and we worked out a plan. He told me that he could deliver in 30 to 45 days. I questioned this and he said he does it all the time, no problem. I sent ½ of the money that next morning and the rest two weeks later. He didn’t ask me to pre-pay, I just had some expenses coming up and wanted that cleared out of the way. That was my choice. He told me that all along the build he would keep in touch and send pictures as he went along. I sat back to wait.
Along about Nov. I emailed him to ask how it was going. He replied that he had some rebuilding to do on some rifles damaged in shipment and would be finished with mine soon. End of Dec I emailed again and he said he was working on it. End of Jan I emailed him that deer season was over and asked how it was coming. He sent me a picture of a blank he was going to use for the wood.. I wondered about this as he had told me that he was “working on it” back in Dec. Anyway, I wasn’t in a great hurry, but I was wondering about his excuses by now. Turkey season ended in mid April and I emailed to tell him that another season was over and asked about his progress. He replied that the guy he uses to do some of his wood finishing was ill and that since it was such a fine piece of wood, he had been taking his time and using AF to finish the wood. ( haven’t received one picture of his progress as he promised) He said it was completed and had been shipped to me. Two weeks later I emailed him too ask if we needed to do a tracer on it since I had not received it. He replied that it had been built for two weeks and packaged up and he was waiting to get a chance to go to the post office to mail it. He was sorry for the delay. He cited medical problems with his wife and mother in law.
On May the 2nd it arrived. I opened the box and wondered what the HE?? The only thing resembling the gun I ordered was that it had iron furniture. No nose cap, no carving, no thumb piece inlay, no sights, and the color wasn’t even close . I’m not even sure it was the same piece of wood he had sent me a picture of. If it was, he did a good job of obliterating a lot of figure. I didn’t even remove it from the package. Just closed it up and shipped it back. I sent him an email advising him that it was being returned and told him to mail me a refund check. I waited a week, got the signed receipt where he received it on May 4th and having not heard from him, I called. He said he was sorry and that he just messed up. I did receive an email from him asking if I got his email. He said he had tried to email me several times and had not heard from me. I’m not having any email problems that I know of. I get everyone elses. Then he went in to all manners of excuses, mostly that he had been traveling to and from hospitals with sick family. He said the rifle was sold and I would have my money in a couple of days. He also said he just didn’t have the money to repay me at the present time. I have since seen the gun advertised twice on forum boards so apparently he hasn’t sold it.

It seemed to me that he didn’t even pay any attention to what I ordered. It was like he just sent whatever he had on hand after 10 months of waiting. I was trying to be patient and trying to be nice about it. Now I don’t feel so nice. I did keep every piece of correspondence we exchanged and I even googled him up and found similar problems with other people and similar excuses from him. I am guilty of pre-paying if you want to think about it that way, BUT, I still believe most folks are honest, especially in this community. I still believe in “handshake “ agreements. This hasn’t changed that. I also am guilty of thinking”¦well”¦.it won’t happen to me””¦yeah well it did and I did learn that lesson. Now, what would you guys do next? It’s been a month now since he got his creation back.
propriate, mods, feel free to remove it.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Advice? OK, but you already know this. Don't ever pay a gunmaker all of the money for a gun before it's done. If he insists, find somebody else to build the gun. Painfull lesson to learn the hard way as you just did. Also, If his prices are too good to be true, they generally are. Same goes with wait time. If your gunmaker has an exceptionally short wait time it means nobody else wants his guns....there's usually a reason for that. Or, he's may be a unknown that does exceptional work that nobody has found yet...that doesn't happen often.
At this point it's time to put the law on him. You're well documented so you should get your money back, I hope!
As an example, I take $200 down and the balance due apon completion. That policy keeps me out of this kind of trouble.
This problem goes both ways. I have a fowler I built last February that's been sitting in the corner that the owner won't pay for. I usually contact the owner when the gun is done and tell him to send the check and I send the gun at the same time. For some unknown reason I waited for the check to arrive this time. Needless to say, I won't bee shipping guns untill I have money in hand from now on. Lucky for me I still have the gun in hand so I will recoup my investment in labor.

 

[spitpatch]

If I did not get my money real soon I would let every one know who this guy is. I had the same problem with a guy on e-bay selling gun parts. He had over 600 feedbacks and not bad then all of a sudden he had 8 bad almost in a row and you bet I was one of the guys that got screwed. I can sure understand your frustration. But don't know what to tell you other than let us all know who this guy is so he can't pull it again. Also you could let the IRS know. I bet he does this work off the books. Thats my 2 cents. Also beware on ebay or gun broker ( mkg91 ) bad apple. Jim

 

[BrownBear]

We do custom and contract work in another venue, but our practices parallel Mike's. We get enough down to cover our basic costs (usually 50%), with the remainder due on delivery. We've only been burned twice in 16 years, but even in those our costs were covered even if we didn't make a profit. We're quick and polite about refunds if clients aren't happy, finding that's the best route for long term business success and rep. I guess we're more ethical than the character you're saddled with, but we're really careful about deadlines and progress reports.

Your circumstance is painfully similar to a land deal we're sorting with a "friend." Lots of hand shakes and promises, but this guy has turned out to be a snake. Haven't resorted to lawyers yet, but that's probably our only resort for getting what we were promised. Without good paper and documentation, it's simply our word against his on several points. Sounds as though you are well covered on that count, so your odds of eventual recovery are better than ours. Before commencing that, I'd make sure he knows how good your documentation is and that any settlement is going to include reimbursement for your legal fees. Knowing how strong your case is and recognizing that it's going to cost him lots more money if he doesn't step up and do the honorable thing might be enough to get him to settle up without further hassle.

 

[J.D.]

Would his gunmaker work out of Utah and have the initials GLJ?

IF so, I know a lot of people who have had trouble with him...including me.

I would suggest that you report him to his states attorney generals office and call the police in his home town and report him as fraudulently soliciting money with a failure to deliver the promised goods. Sometimes all it takes is a clear and present threat of arrest, to get a full refund.

J.D.

 

[riverrat43]

Thanks guys. I'm hoping he'll read this and do the right thing quickly. Funny thing is I do think he'll pay me, but I'd prefer it to be on my schedule rather than his. If he doesn't, I'm prepared to go the distance just on principles sake.

 

[mbw907]

By all means, if you don't get satisfaction, keep us posted so we don't make the same mistake of using him for any work. I know there are some good ones out there. And most are slow to turn good work. But dishonesty to buy more time is not the way he should go. Keep us posted.

 

[riverrat43]

Ya know...that hits the nail on the head. If he'd have said, hey..I'll make you a gun but it will take a year or whatever, that would have been fine. In this case I get the feeling he made a bunch of promises just in order to not lose the business. As to keeping you informed, I'm sending him another email tonight inviting him to read this post and the other that I've made. Further I'm going to advise him that if I don't have a check within 7 days, I'll publish his name here and on the forum he sells his stuff on. We'll see.

 

[RiverRat]

Hey Cuz, I'm sorry for you that you have to go through this. It sounds to me like you are bending over backwards. Please do the forum a favor and expose this person if he fails to meet your last deadline. My builder requests 10% down and the rest upon delivery. He dosen't like people to pre-pay because he much rather work towards a payday. I don't know how some people sleep at night after they take someone's money for promises he dosen't plan to keep! Good Luck!

 

[riverrat43]

Don't worry..I do keep my word. He'll be betting his reputation on that fact. By the way..something good will come of this anyway. I bought the Va Rfile stock on the auction here. As soon as he returns my money I'll be contacting Barbie to get the rest of the parts. Maybe this was the impetus for me to finally get off my butt and build my own. Thanks to each of you for "listening" and to all the builders on here for the encouragement you give everyday and don't even realize it. It really means a lot to us newbies.

 

[John Taylor]

My thoughts also. I don't like to get paid in advance but I like enough to cover parts.

 

[Zonie]

riverrat43: Good luck to you.

Although this post doesn't deal with the construction or repair of muzzleloaders, it does deal with Builders ethics.
As far as I'm concerned, having high ethics is extremely important for a builder (and the novice as well) so, I will leave this post here.

I would like to make it clear however that I will not permit the Gun Builder's Bench to become a place where minor issues or gripes with builders can be posted.
I think posts of that nature would be better suited (if they are legitimate) to the "Non Muzzleloading Discussions" area of the Muzzleloading Forum.

zonie

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Bad dealings & feel for you.

Years ago we ran a little home based business for items we produced, made the mistake a couple of times of not waiting for checks to clear, and they bounced. Went to the USPS, as all shipping and correspondence was done by mail, they more of less told us to go urinate up a rope. Go to the cops, yeah right, talk about involved.

I was then referred to a collection agency, furnished proof of money owed etc, and found these guys to be the original junk yard dogs when it comes to collecting, they were unrelenting. Their fee was reasonable, but guess their real income was derived from charging the welchers for all collection costs.

 

[riverrat43]

I was politely asked not to divulge the individuals name by the administrator of another forum I had posted this on. What follows is my reply. I also think it might apply to this forum as well. I also don't want to do anything to harm the reputation of this forum or to turn it into a mudd slinging venue. This post can die now and I'll deal with it. After all....I made my bed.

"...as you wish. No problem. I agree with the fact that this board should build and not tear down. I also agree that there are two sides to everything. Having said that, I don't see this as any different than if I warned you about a spam artist on the web taking folks money or even if someone warned us about a really bad product that would be a waste of money if we bought it. I wrote my original post for several reasons. 1.For a catharsis of a sort. I guess I needed to vent.2. To let others know that there are some folks out there who will rip you off and to be careful and do plenty of research. 3. To provide something concrete, documented and true for that research to uncover. I do wish there had been more for me to find when I did a cursory check myself. I think this is important. If no one posts positive as well as the negative experiences, what do we have to go on? 4. I'm hoping the maker will read these posts and understand what the community, as a whole, thinks of this behavior. Perhaps that will be enough to cause a positive resolution in my particular case and help to avert future episodes. My attempts to contact him continue to go unanswered. These things were on my mind. Please re-read the opening lines of my post. I would have completely understood if you had deleted the entire post. It was never my intention to bring any type of discredit to this great forum. I don't believe I have nor do I think you believe so, else you would have removed it. I purposly did not attack his character, his personal habits nor did I even allude to the characteristics of the "gun". I had no wish to be vindictive or to flame anyone personally in public. I am writing now to the forum administrator that "supports" his sales efforts by allowing him to advertise there. I'll ask permission to put this post there. I have never posted there and didn't feel that was quite the right way to go about a first post. Perhaps I should have asked permission here first in a private email. My apologies for not having done so. I'll honor your request, however; not because I think I have to, but because I also think it would be in the best interest of this forum. I'd be only too happy to divulge his identity to anyone who PM's or emails me if my deadline to him is not met. I just don't think there is any place for this type of behavior in this small community."

Ask an American Indian what uncontrolled,illegal immigration did to his ancestors, his lands and his way of life. Then look your kids and grandkids in the eye and think of their future.