Roundballs for Elk

[Idaho Ron]

In short, that 58 will kill an elk dead right there! But the elk might not admit it until 700 yards later :idunno:

That is so true :thumbsup: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[tenngun]

Much of 'dieing' depends on outlook. Humans have gone down with small hits sure they were going to die. Because People know that gunsots are fatel. At time people have had mortal shots but kept on fighting. Some time this could be from excitment related drive, some times the culture of the person being shot didnt know bullet holes killed. The Phillipine war comes to mind, or walker fighting Great Basin tribes. No wild animal knows that a wound is fatel. Its will to get away to some place safe can overide its need to lay down and die. I shot a possum at close range with a .62. It blew possum guts all over my porch. It fell 10 feet to a low stone wall and hit hard. It crawed off in to the woods and I followed it. It left a big blood trail thet I had no trouble seeing in the moon light. Ran out after about 1/4 mile and I lost the trail. Went backthe next morning and followed a blood free trail for another few hunndred yards. Then lost that trail.
No matter what you hit something with it might run a bit before it gives up the ghost.

 

[Vaino]

Have hunted elk w/ both CFs and MLers and found the elk travelled less after being shot w/ the MLers than w/ the CFs. Possibly because of the limitations of a ML, I got a little closer and thereby placed the shot more precisely.

My .54 swaged RBs rarely penetrated through, but did terminate all the energy in the elk...instead of in some tree or whatever is behind. A blood trail wasn't necessary because the elk dropped in short order.

Although elk are much larger than a whitetail, my experience has been that they're not that difficult to kill.

Elk hunting is much more difficult than deer hunting....the altitude, their tight herding instinct which causes " feast or famine situations", heavy cover on wooded slopes and if using a muzzle loader, range limitations. But, hunting elk is probably my favorite hunt....Fred

 

[longcruise]

The projectile was a .50 caliber, 370 gr MaxiBall. The shot was an ideal broadside. The bullet struck behind the shoulder, centering and breaking a rib, passed through both lungs and between ribs on the offside where it was caught and stopped by the skin.

A huge lead cow that I shot with a .54 round ball was nearly an identical hit, with the ball stopping just under the skin on the offside. That elk took off at a full out run through thick black timber. No blood or hair at the site of the hit, no blood trail. No blood at all until I found her about 100 yards away.

 

[longcruise]

The projectile was a .50 caliber, 370 gr MaxiBall. The shot was an ideal broadside. The bullet struck behind the shoulder, centering and breaking a rib, passed through both lungs and between ribs on the offside where it was caught and stopped by the skin.

A huge lead cow that I shot with a .54 round ball was nearly an identical hit, with the ball stopping just under the skin on the offside. That elk took off at a full out run through thick black timber. No blood or hair at the site of the hit, no blood trail. No blood at all until I found her about 100 yards away.

 

[Britsmoothy]

So two occasions of near pass through. One hole only and completely different result.
It is exactly the same as with contemporary firearms.
Too much is hung on penetration.

B.

 

[longcruise]

Those near pass through were actually complete pass through with the projectiles caught by the skin. Wound channels through both lungs. Pass through as in exit hole are, IMO, overrated.

I had the opportunity to help field dress two mulie does of the same size, both shot broadside with .54 balls over 80 gr ff. One at 30 yards, the other at 180 (yes, one hundred eighty). Both stopped the balls under the skin on the far side.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sorry l meant complete pass through penertration.

B.

 

[Wes/Tex]

So two occasions of near pass through. One hole only and completely different result.
It is exactly the same as with contemporary firearms.
Too much is hung on penetration.

B.

Yep...any ball or slug that completely penetrates takes a fair portion of it's kenetic energy with it. Ideally, you want everything left in the critter. I can't compare elk to other large game but do know of three bull buffalo knocked for 6 with .62's a 90 grains of FFg. Can't imagine elk being tougher than that!

 

[Rat Trapper]

I've spent some time in my younger days working for an outfitter in Colorado. I've shot a few elk myself too. This I have learned: if the shot is not well placed, that elk may go some place that you will have you wishing you had not started this game. elk are big animals that require well placed shots with a proper with a proper load of proper caliber. to hunt elk you need to be in very good shape too!

 

[Sean Gadhar]

to hunt elk you need to be in very good shape too!

I hear this a lot. And it is true.....but

I would hate to have a guy NOT go elk hunting because he felt he had to be a running back to hunt elk.

It IS vary helpful & increases your odds if you are in "vary good shape".

It might even be dangerous to come to elevation & exert yourself if you are in bad shape.

And an Elk will always try to die in the worst possible place to pack out of. So you need some plan for getting 80 pound quarters 1/2 a mile up a 14% grade covered with scrabble in a rain shower :idunno:

But IMHO if you can walk around you block twice in the morning & again twice at night, and do that 3-4 days in a row. You can elk hunt. You will need help, a guide. or that 16 year old neighbor kid that is always asking you to tell him hunting stories. My life long hunting partner is 73 this year and between his tags in CO. & WY. and his grandsons tags in WY. Hunts mule deer & elk about 30 days a year. He is a step or two slower and a bit pickier about glassing first to see if it's worth the climb, but HE HUNTS Elk.

Herb here at the Forums took a nice mule deer last year in the same kind of sage country I took my last two elk in.....I believe Herb is 82 this year.

:thumbsup: So check with your Doctor, walk the dog & put in for your elk tag!

 

[roundball]

Yep...any ball or slug that completely penetrates takes a fair portion of it's kenetic energy with it. Ideally, you want everything left in the critter.

Just for another perspective, I think this is an area open for additional thought, or at least clarification. My personal view is limited to Eastern Whitetails, but will unashamedly say an awful lot of them now, taken with stout powder charges using several calibers & gauges of rifles and smoothbores... .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cals for comparison.

Observations / conclusions:

1) I've had a lot of complete pass-throughs and while technically speaking some additional energy was indeed spent in the woods on the other side of the deer...that doesn't mean anything at all about energy being taken away from the energy already expended inside the deer;

2) A complete pass-through means the projectile was under a much stronger head of steam across / through the entire deer's body, across more vitals, creating much greater trauma / wound channel / damage than one which slowed down and came to a complete stop somewhere inside a deer's body;

3) Anyone who has taken enough big game knows that it is not uncommon for an internal organ to block blood loss out of a single entry point, but virtually never blocks blood loss from both entry & exit points from a complete pass-through...a huge benefit regarding the possible need for blood trailing.

4) I don't believe the notion that a ball stopping inside a game animal is the better choice simply because it can be claimed that "all the energy was left inside the animal".
Reality is that such a ball simply ran out of steam inside, had less energy to expend to begin with...yes, it certainly expended it all inside the animal...but that's because it slowed down and stopped.

5) One that stops bulging the hide on the far side is of course the best of all those that stop somewhere inside, but it’s impossible for us to manage a shot to do that...in addition, the lost benefit of blood trailing would be a negative”¦when it could have been had if that ball had just a little extra umph (weight / velocity) to break on out through that hide.

At any rate, prior to my switching from heart shots to high shoulder / vertebrae shots to drop Whitetails in their tracks...my personal experience in all the calibers was to use a larger caliber ball with plenty of weight and the velocity to drive it so I'd get a pass-through on a Whitetail body shot for the reasons stated above.
Others mileage may vary...

 

[Sean Gadhar]

:hmm: You guys get me thinking about the darnedest things :thumbsup:

Now I'm thinking, how would you test the force required to push a semi- flattened round ball through that skin?

I bet with the elasticity and the skin being able to pull away from the ribs rather them being pushed hard up against them (as it would be on the entry wound), I'll bet it is quite a bit of force indeed, needed to push that round ball out if a rib isn't broken on the exit side.

 

[robert reed]

This all boils down to the eternal argument of kinetic energy vs. momentum. The the energy levels that we achieve with lead round balls are anemic compared to modern rifle and even handgun rounds, especially considering the rapid deceleration of the round ball. Yet round balls kill out of all proportion to this apples and oranges comparison.

I think that the Taylor KO formula that gives credit to bullet diameter is far more appropriate to muzzle loading ballistics. Velocity is not as important as caliber and weight of the projectile. Simply put, big balls make big holes.
:grin:

 

[roundball]

Not what I was talking about at all...just giving a different perspective about the thinking that a ball "delivering all its energy by staying inside" is not necessarily as good as it sounds on its face.

 

[robert reed]

Agreed! :v

 

[robinsroost]

[quote
I think that the Taylor KO formula that gives credit to bullet diameter is far more appropriate to muzzle loading ballistics. Velocity is not as important as caliber and weight of the projectile. Simply put, big balls make big holes.
:grin: [/quote]

I was a LEO for 36 years and have been a hunter for 60+ years. I have seen a lot of animals, both two and four legged, shot and killed. One truth stands above all others: The bigger the hole, the quicker they bleed out and go down. Keep yer powder dry......Robin :wink:

 

[longcruise]

This is an important factor. It's very common for projectiles to be stopped by the skin on the exit side. The elasticity of the skin is a huge factor.

There is a video somewhere on YouTube showing a deer hit broadside. The vid is from the front side of the deer. You can clearly see the skin stretch out about 18 inches and then snap back holding the bullet. I can't do a link on my phone but it can probably be found with a search.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Yep...any ball or slug that completely penetrates takes a fair portion of it's kenetic energy with it. Ideally, you want everything left in the critter.

Just for another perspective, I think this is an area open for additional thought, or at least clarification. My personal view is limited to Eastern Whitetails, but will unashamedly say an awful lot of them now, taken with stout powder charges using several calibers & gauges of rifles and smoothbores... .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cals for comparison.





Observations / conclusions:

1) I've had a lot of complete pass-throughs and while technically speaking some additional energy was indeed spent in the woods on the other side of the deer...that doesn't mean anything at all about energy being taken away from the energy already expended inside the deer;

2) A complete pass-through means the projectile was under a much stronger head of steam across / through the entire deer's body, across more vitals, creating much greater trauma / wound channel / damage than one which slowed down and came to a complete stop somewhere inside a deer's body;

3) Anyone who has taken enough big game knows that it is not uncommon for an internal organ to block blood loss out of a single entry point, but virtually never blocks blood loss from both entry & exit points from a complete pass-through...a huge benefit regarding the possible need for blood trailing.

4) I don't believe the notion that a ball stopping inside a game animal is the better choice simply because it can be claimed that "all the energy was left inside the animal".
Reality is that such a ball simply ran out of steam inside, had less energy to expend to begin with...yes, it certainly expended it all inside the animal...but that's because it slowed down and stopped.

5) One that stops bulging the hide on the far side is of course the best of all those that stop somewhere inside, but it’s impossible for us to manage a shot to do that...in addition, the lost benefit of blood trailing would be a negative”¦when it could have been had if that ball had just a little extra umph (weight / velocity) to break on out through that hide.

At any rate, prior to my switching from heart shots to high shoulder / vertebrae shots to drop Whitetails in their tracks...my personal experience in all the calibers was to use a larger caliber ball with plenty of weight and the velocity to drive it so I'd get a pass-through on a Whitetail body shot for the reasons stated above.
Others mileage may vary...

:applause: :applause: :applause:
I agree 100%. And that can also be said for Elk.

 

[Idaho Ron]

So two occasions of near pass through. One hole only and completely different result.
It is exactly the same as with contemporary firearms.
Too much is hung on penetration.

B.

Yep...any ball or slug that completely penetrates takes a fair portion of it's kenetic energy with it. Ideally, you want everything left in the critter. I can't compare elk to other large game but do know of three bull buffalo knocked for 6 with .62's a 90 grains of FFg. Can't imagine elk being tougher than that!

To be honest buffalo in a pasture are not any where near as tough as a Wild adult bull elk. Now a wild bull buffalo that had to make his living dodging wolves bears and indians would have been a tough critter. Not the pay and play ones we have today.