Rollin' My Own.......

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by Marc Adamchek, Nov 17, 2019.

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  1. Dec 22, 2019 #101

    Erwan

    Erwan

    Erwan

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  2. Dec 22, 2019 #102

    Ontario47

    Ontario47

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    "Flash Paper" as used by a magician is nitrocellulose an explosive that will "Flash" or burn up when ignited by friction (snapping your fingers) or static.. I ordered some a long time ago to use for paper cartridges and scared myself when I realized what it was.. It is not paper treated with saltpeter, it is guncotton made with nitric acid (think dynamite)!!!
     
  3. Dec 22, 2019 #103

    Erwan

    Erwan

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    Guncotton don't have any rapport with dynamite, if you can do some ersatz of dynamite with cotton and nitric acid tell me how... ;)
    If the paper were what you said this could not be sold in France.
    Don't you have any idea of the laws and government where I live ? France isn't USA...
    You can read some posts before this one: I know perfectly how to make and use nitro-cellulose and even make my own collodion but that stuff (nitrocellulose) is strictly forbidden heven I deed learn how to make it during my cursus. This paper is not nitrocellulose, after that you can think all you want but like you described this is a wrong way to explain what the H&C paper is: this is not a nitrocellulose but a treated paper (think at our laws about explosives before all)...
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
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  4. Dec 23, 2019 #104

    Ontario47

    Ontario47

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    Let me rephrase "explosive" as "highly flammable". That distinction is very nuanced. Flash paper as used by magicians is very easily ignited. Many other highly flammable (explosives) require detonators. Over simplification of most chemical processes is problematic.
    Dynamite is nitroglycerin mixed with diatomaceous earth or something similar. Nitroglycerin is made by nitrating glycerol (an organic hydrocarbon/sugar) with white fuming nitric acid under proper conditions (do not try this at home). Flash paper is made by nitrating cellulose ( an organic hydrocarbon made from sugar) with nitric acid (don't try this either). How complete the nitrating is (not to be confused with nitrated paper [ a mixture]) determines how strongly it burns and what handling is needed. Nitroglycerin pills for heart conditions are basically the same chemical so legal controls are again nuanced.
     
  5. Dec 23, 2019 #105

    Gee Dog

    Gee Dog

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    I'm reading a lot of complicated solutions to a problem that doesn't exist.
     
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  6. Dec 23, 2019 #106

    Desperate Lee

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    Yeah me to there Gee Dog
    DL
     
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  7. Dec 23, 2019 #107

    Erwan

    Erwan

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    It's just, personally I don't use this product too expensive for what it brings good, I only use nitrated paper and almost never in fact since I mainly use treated linen for my Sharps .54 cartridges.

    When the discussion started to talk about "flash paper" I talked about H&C paper which is used by many people, personally I don't use and don't need it but it can be useful to know what exists: the same method of making cartridge paper and therefore cartridges was also used by Colt and Johnson & Dow in the 1800's ...

    In this case too I would prefer the 1862 Bartholow patent cartridges because I kow how to do them and they are much better than paper cartriges... ;)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
  8. Dec 23, 2019 #108

    .44 associate

    .44 associate

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    I've done all sorts of testing with flash paper and have not found it to be especially easy to ignite. I cannot get it to go off with any sort of friction or percussion, and even white hot sparks from flint and steel rarely work.

    As for the folks who keep telling us that we're wasting our time, yes, we get it. You don't need to keep saying it. I personally am trying to learn as much as possible through experimentation and it is my time to waste as I see fit.
     
  9. Dec 23, 2019 #109

    Gee Dog

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    Knock yourself out, associate. Have a ball. I'll go shooting.
     
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  10. Dec 23, 2019 #110

    artu44

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    i bought this HC paper in France for my 1858 remington target together the dedicate nitrocellulose glue and it works very well. The real plus is the thickness: no more cigarette or perm paper broken and powder spilled everywhere.
     
  11. Dec 23, 2019 #111

    Erwan

    Erwan

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    In this field you have to know how to keep reason and if a shooter finds his way of making paper cartridges good and gets good results for himself it's good and doesn't deserve criticism I think...
    There's the shooter who uses paper cartridges because, even if it takes a long time at home, he'll think he'll go faster at the shooting range... why not...
    There's the one who wants to master the whole production line from paper nitration to the final shot... why not?
    There's the shooter who wants to go fast everywhere and won't look any further than cigarette paper... why not...
    There's the shooter who's curious about what could have been done in the past and is trying to reproduce it... why not...
    There is also the shooter who for more than fifty years has been competing with prohibited paper cartridges (MLAIC for example) and who, now tired of this kind of competition, spends his time searching and experimenting in all areas concerning reloading and cartridges to get as close as possible to the historical truth and with achievements that work well (I am part of this class of people) .
    There are shooters who are not at all interested in cartridges and load bullets on gunpowder... why not?
    There are those who cannot do otherwise: two of my weapons can only work with cartridges, this is the case of my Chassepot rifle and it is also the case of my Sharps. Why shoot with these things and always try to find the ways of the past? Why not...

    The important thing is and will remain where everyone will find it when shooting black powder: it's a pleasure, not a job. There is no need to try to impose ideas or concepts: the information is enough and everyone will make his choice...

    No way of doing things is bad and there are only different shooters, coming from different horizons, with different experiences, different possibilities of access to different products and what is good on the fora (normally) is not the criticism but the exchange and sharing of experiences and also of the knowledge acquired over time...

    That was long, wasn't it? I'm sorry.
     
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  12. Dec 23, 2019 #112

    Blogman

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    Ditto
     
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  13. Dec 23, 2019 #113

    Ontario47

    Ontario47

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    Re: Flash paper. I am surprised at the 'blowback' on my comments. The flash paper I had many years ago looked like onion skin and would ignite if rubbed vigorously between your hands. I do not know if it was the heat of friction or static that set it off. I grew up in Canada and played with legal 4" firecrackers that would rip open metal garbage cans and black powder my father bought for me (don't ask)(made great rockets). The flash paper I had was not paper soaked in potassium nitrate and like the 4" crackers may not be legally available now. My comments were to say "be careful" and know what you are workin with. BTW what is HC or H&C Paper? PS BTW look up flash paper on YouTube, interesting,fun,potentially dangerous.
     
  14. Dec 23, 2019 #114

    .44 associate

    .44 associate

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    I'm sorry if I seemed short with you in my reply. I was a bit irritated about something unrelated and apparently let that show.

    My experience with flash paper is limited. I have seen a few subtly different ways to make it. I also have heard that it may degrade - but concrete information about all of this is very hard to come by. I do not doubt your experience, but it is different from mine so far - and as Erwan has noted, the paper supplied by H&C appears to be flash paper. I got a C- in chemistry 101 so will not be making any flash paper myself, but so far am comfortable with it for making paper cartridges. It remains to be seen whether the effort is worthwhile...
     
  15. Dec 28, 2019 #115

    .44 associate

    .44 associate

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    A brief update, for anyone who cares...

    The flash paper works, mostly. It is hard to get it to stick to itself. The standard Elmer's stick doesn't work very well. Any of the "wet" glues - including sodium silicate and the "magic" cement sold for the purpose - simply melt the paper. The "double strength" Elmer's stick works, as least for sticking the paper to itself.

    Shooting results:

    Untreated curling paper is completely reliable, at least as I do it with a single wrap on the mandrel and a single piece glued to the base. Regardless of the glue used, a bit of paper is left behind In the chambers,

    Nitrated paper is essentially the same, though I note less paper left behind in the chambers. The trouble, though, seems to be less about the paper and more about the little "worm" left behind by the glued surfaces. This seems to be an issue regardless of the glue used. The "double strength" Elmer's is the worst, but regular glue sticks, sodium silicate, and Duco (full strength and diluted with acetone) all leave little strips of unburned glue/paper behind. This may honestly not be any kind of issue (Hi Gee Dog!) but the holy grail for me is a chamber with nothing left behind but a bit of powder fouling. So far the flash paper with the "magic fluid" is the only thing that has done that for me, but making cartridges with that combination is nightmarish.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  16. Dec 28, 2019 #116

    .44 associate

    .44 associate

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    I sure would like to know what sort of glue H&C is using. Looking at their videos, I see nothing left behind when they burn a glued "cone" of flash paper. I have not yet been able to achieve that result with anything other than the magician's cement which melts the paper so badly as to make it almost unuseable. I would order the H&C kit except they cannot ship it to me - California law strikes again...
     
  17. Jan 7, 2020 #117

    Eutycus

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    What exactly are the qualifications for a good paper? There have been several different ones mentioned here on this thread. Is newsprint "nitrateable" or will it just fall apart in the solution? Or is it the ink maybe? I can picture a gooey inky gob in your solution.
     
  18. Jan 8, 2020 #118

    .44 associate

    .44 associate

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    I have not tried newspaper.

    I am concerned about cigarette paper, as my communication with several representatives has convinced me that unless you have carefully researched your exact purchase you really do not know what you have - and some of it really would be a poor choice for our application.

    So far, several different brands of curling paper appear to be identical to me. (I have not been able to contact any of those makers. Little old ladies apparently do not call to ask about the content of their papers.) I very much would like to learn the content of the flash paper offered online by several magic shops, but none of them know. They are happy merely to sell the stuff, and who can blame them?

    Ultimately, I expect to find the "magic" combination, but in any event find nitrated curling papers to work well enough.
     
  19. Jan 8, 2020 #119

    Woodnbow

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    Too long, didn’t read...













    sorry, just razzing ya’ @Erwan . I enjoy your posts. It’s winter up here, I don’t have much to do but read wisdom from the muzzleloading forum...
     
  20. Jan 8, 2020 #120

    ugly old guy

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    I always used a double layer of cigarette paper, back when I made combustable paper cartridges for my "kentucky" rifle.
    I forget the brand, but back then it was the most popular choice of both muzzleloaders and weedheads.
     

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