Robert E. Lee

[tenngun]

Not much longer.

The British institution of slavery was unique to the American colonies and tropical islands in the Caribbean sea (which could be called ‘colonies in the America’s’). There we’re smatterings of slaves in some British colonies in southern Africa and the East India Company owned some. Chattel slavery was fading. Society was changing, as it always has and always will.

I guess it was unique except for Spanish,Dutch,and French America, North Africa,and all of the Muslim world, China,Indonesia,and large sections of Polynesian , and can’t forget Pacific North west. Oh yeah the last hold out of slavery in the Western hemisphere Brazil, ah Portuguese in that case.

 

[Widows Son]

I guess it was unique except for Spanish,Dutch,and French America, North Africa,and all of the Muslim world, China,Indonesia,and large sections of Polynesian , and can’t forget Pacific North west. Oh yeah the last hold out of slavery in the Western hemisphere Brazil, ah Portuguese in that case.

You are correct, Sir; but that wasn’t the question.

The context was about the culpability of Great Britain instituting slavery in the New World and how much longer it may have lasted post/sans US independence.

 

[1950DAVE]

"Playing politics" with strange bedfellows is as old as history. The 1860 Southern Democratic ticket for the presidency was John Breckenridge for President, a young Kentucky Congressman, and Joseph Lane, a Kentucky politician and Mexican-American War general and hero who was.....the appointed Governor of Oregon.

Just curious. Was Gen. R.E. Lee a politician? Who did Lee support? I fail of seeing Lee's connection to any of these. At least as far his character is concerned.
I keep trying to direct this thread back to Lee but some want to go of on every tangent imaginable related to the War. I encourage them to start a thread and narrow their discussion to some point they want to make.
When I started this thread I did so because I felt that the point I wanted to make was not appropriate to the discussion that was going on in another thread. At least link Lee to the point you would like to make. Please notice the thread title.

 

[tenngun]

You are correct, Sir; but that wasn’t the question.

The context was about the culpability of Great Britain instituting slavery in the New World and how much longer it may have lasted post/sans US independence.

Why would they have been culpable for taking part in a trade common to all the nations around them.
Was the Heron culpable for torturing POWs?as that was common amount all the people around them. How about the Mongols or the Zulus?
Was the UK more culpable for empire building then the Romans,Spanish, Egyptians, Arabs, Polynesian, Inca?
Was Irish and Scottish slaves sold in America a lesser crime then Blacks, how about the Scottish coal miners of eighteenth through twentieth centuries. Blacks were freed in Brazil before Scottish coal chattel slaves were freed?

 

[Coinneach]

Just curious. Was Gen. R.E. Lee a politician? Who did Lee support? I fail of seeing Lee's connection to any of these. At least as far his character is concerned.
I keep trying to direct this thread back to Lee but some want to go of on every tangent imaginable related to the War. I encourage them to start a thread and narrow their discussion to some point they want to make.
When I started this thread I did so because I felt that the point I wanted to make was not appropriate to the discussion that was going on in another thread. At least link Lee to the point you would like to make. Please notice the thread title.

To be fair I think that many of us have been getting caught up in the wider context of Lee's pre and during WBTS era, understandably that easily carries anyone off on a tangent.

 

[1950DAVE]

Lord Garnet Wolseley, Commander in Chief of the Armies of Great Britain said this of Lee.
" I have met many of the great men of my time, but Lee alone impressed me with the feeling that I was in the presence of a man who was cast in a grander mold, and made of metal different from, and finer than that of all other men. I believe that Lee towered far above all men on either side of that struggle. I believe Lee will be regarded not only as the most prominent figure of the Confederacy, but as the greatest American of the nineteenth century; whose statue is well worthy to stand on an equal pedestal with that of Washington, arms whose memory is equally worthy to be enshrined in the hearts of his countrymen."

 

[1950DAVE]

John N. Deering, D.D. author of had this to say in his book, Lee and His Cause.
"At least three decisions of Gen. Lee and their consequent events in his life, were so important, and so illustrative of his character, that they must be recalled here ............ There were the surrender of his army; the choice of the presidency of Washington College; and his dying without saying a word or leaving a line to vindicate his conduct or enhance his fame.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Lord Garnet Wolseley, Commander in Chief of the Armies of Great Britain said this of Lee.
" I have met many of the great men of my time, but Lee alone impressed me with the feeling that I was in the presence of a man who was cast in a grander mold, and made of metal different from, and finer than that of all other men. I believe that Lee towered far above all men on either side of that struggle. I believe Lee will be regarded not only as the most prominent figure of the Confederacy, but as the greatest American of the nineteenth century; whose statue is well worthy to stand on an equal pedestal with that of Washington, arms whose memory is equally worthy to be enshrined in the hearts of his countrymen."

I would say that is a remarkable endorsement for the fiber of the man.

 

[Coinneach]

According to everything I have ever read on it, yes- it had been loaded that long. The Lee revolver had the chamber ends filled with red sealing wax and there was some sort of varnish over the caps.
EVEN BETTER is Andrew Jackson's flintlock pistol. Before the Hermitage was built Jackson lived in a log cabin that ended up being behind the mansion. Once the mansion was built Jackson let his favorite slave have the cabin. Back around 1980??? some folks were going through the cabin and discovered a flintlock pistol hidden on top of one of the exposed log rafters. Whether the gun belonged to Jackson or the Slave, or it was Jackson's and he gave it to the slave- I'm not sure that was ever determined. In any event the person who found it took it out into the side yard, cocked the pistol and fired it AND it went off after all those years.

WOW !

 

[arjay]

For me this has truly been a most interesting, informative, and entertaining thread.

 

[Southernfi]

"Playing politics" with strange bedfellows is as old as history. The 1860 Southern Democratic ticket for the presidency was John Breckenridge for President, a young Kentucky Congressman, and Joseph Lane, a Kentucky politician and Mexican-American War general and hero who was.....the appointed Governor of Oregon.

You are leaving out Steven Douglas and John Bell, who further diluted the vote. Also, I think Lincoln wasn't even listed on the ballots of southern states and Breckenridge was omitted from the northern ballots. Election laws were pretty lose then.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Just curious. Was Gen. R.E. Lee a politician? Who did Lee support? I fail of seeing Lee's connection to any of these. At least as far his character is concerned.
I keep trying to direct this thread back to Lee but some want to go of on every tangent imaginable related to the War. I encourage them to start a thread and narrow their discussion to some point they want to make.
When I started this thread I did so because I felt that the point I wanted to make was not appropriate to the discussion that was going on in another thread. At least link Lee to the point you would like to make. Please notice the thread title.

You can NOT discuss LEE in a vacuum. Stop trying. LEE is part of the WBTS and is woven into it including slavery.

 

[Red Owl]

This slave issue. George Washington is on record as being for emancipation and stated that the horrific effects of slavery might take 3 or more generations to erase, you could not free a slave and expect that person to immediately merge right in with the rest of society. That said, what we are dealing with today is a changed world and the attitudes of yesteryear simply don't fit in. That said, those in the south were not necessarily cruel to slaves, although some certainly were, but by and large saw slaves as being totally dependent on them for support, if freed, they'd stave to death. To a great extent, that is a very convenient attitude to adopt, it justifies having slaves but the reason I said Jefferson Davis spent half his time in prison trying to find employment for his ex-slaves is because that was their actual feeling on the matter. His wife wrote him a letter telling him to stop trying to find work for two younger slaves, both about 20 years old, as they had run off to Kansas. Davis wrote his wife back, I'm mis-quoting but basically, "Well, if they think they are so smart that they can make do on their own then fine with me, let's see how well they make out".

"Still fighting the Civil War" There is a very fine line here and I think folks in the south may even get confused on it to an extent. The Civil War was only 4 years but "reconstruction" lasted half a century. Davis wrote that getting recruits for the confederate army was a problem from the start. In the highlands and bottom lands a lot of folks "hid out" so they wouldn't have to fight. There were also pockets of pro-Union folks, like Brunswick Georgia and a lot of places in Florida and Texas. These folks assumed that when the war was over they would be treated well for staying loyal to the union but they got kicked around along with everyone else. This ill treatment is what made EVERYONE in the South angry. For almost a generation the south was treated like a captured country with military governors, appointed "representatives". We have treated the Mexicans following the War with Mexico and our other foes from wars BETTER than we treated our own people. I have come to believe that this ill treatment is why a lot of folks in the south have negative feelings toward Washington, "Big Government, etc. and why they strongly support State's rights. Those in the North think the Civil War ended in 1865 but for those in the south, not re-admitted to the Union with full rights until the 1890's, the effects are very recent. My great uncle (Texas) was born in 1877. My grandfather was born 1888.

 

[Nor'Easter]

People like your Uncle and Grandfather grew up listening to first hand accounts of life under reconstruction. Yup...... that would drive the resentment deep. If we had treated the CSA with the same compassion we did with the Japanese, there would be a lot less hard feelings. I would ask our Southern brethren to take into consideration that we were still a young and inexperienced Nation, and as far as I know we had no examples to base reconstruction upon. I am not justifying the "carpet baggers". But we still have carpet baggers, they just use Internet scams.

 

[tenngun]

This slave issue. George Washington is on record as being for emancipation and stated that the horrific effects of slavery might take 3 or more generations to erase, you could not free a slave and expect that person to immediately merge right in with the rest of society. That said, what we are dealing with today is a changed world and the attitudes of yesteryear simply don't fit in. That said, those in the south were not necessarily cruel to slaves, although some certainly were, but by and large saw slaves as being totally dependent on them for support, if freed, they'd stave to death. To a great extent, that is a very convenient attitude to adopt, it justifies having slaves but the reason I said Jefferson Davis spent half his time in prison trying to find employment for his ex-slaves is because that was their actual feeling on the matter. His wife wrote him a letter telling him to stop trying to find work for two younger slaves, both about 20 years old, as they had run off to Kansas. Davis wrote his wife back, I'm mis-quoting but basically, "Well, if they think they are so smart that they can make do on their own then fine with me, let's see how well they make out".

"Still fighting the Civil War" There is a very fine line here and I think folks in the south may even get confused on it to an extent. The Civil War was only 4 years but "reconstruction" lasted half a century. Davis wrote that getting recruits for the confederate army was a problem from the start. In the highlands and bottom lands a lot of folks "hid out" so they wouldn't have to fight. There were also pockets of pro-Union folks, like Brunswick Georgia and a lot of places in Florida and Texas. These folks assumed that when the war was over they would be treated well for staying loyal to the union but they got kicked around along with everyone else. This ill treatment is what made EVERYONE in the South angry. For almost a generation the south was treated like a captured country with military governors, appointed "representatives". We have treated the Mexicans following the War with Mexico and our other foes from wars BETTER than we treated our own people. I have come to believe that this ill treatment is why a lot of folks in the south have negative feelings toward Washington, "Big Government, etc. and why they strongly support State's rights. Those in the North think the Civil War ended in 1865 but for those in the south, not re-admitted to the Union with full rights until the 1890's, the effects are very recent. My great uncle (Texas) was born in 1877. My grandfather was born 1888.

I will be quick to point out that the war did not meet the definition of a civil war. The south was fighting for independence from and not a desire to rule the feds.
However it had all the other aspects of a civil war. The other side was irredeemable. Patriots just a few years before we’re now the most vile traitors.
Lee is a perfect example, as he was the most perfect example of a free nations apolitical honorable soldier. Duty before dishonor and death before dishonor were real for him. Not just words.
Across times this sort of was has led to the greatest atrocities.
I can forgive a German for fighting for his country, his overlord, what have you. But, be a Protestant, or Catholic well you deserve to burn in hell and there is nothing bad enough I can do to you.
I can forgive a Frenchman, he is just doing his duty, but support the king, or parliament, well then you your wife, your children, your dogs, and the baker who sold you bread all need the most vile execution.
Reigns of terror rarely happen to invaded countries, but are an all to common side effect of a war inside a country

 

[Eutycus]

I wholeheartedly agree on the description of a civil war. The only thing the South wanted to rule was themselves and be left alone. Who exactly coined that term "Civil War" in referring to the War Between the States? My guess is the Northern Press following the war.Though I have found alot of newspaper articles that refer to it as the "Late Unpleasantness."

 

[11th corps]

The fact that Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation shows enough the union cared about reunification far more than the end of slavery.

The South lost their mind when Lincoln was elected. They knew he ran on a platform of ending slavery. If that evil practice had never existed in the colonies think how much better our country would be today.
Of course he wanted reunification. He also knew this was not possible w/o the end of slavery. Too many rich southern planters thought they couldn't exist w/o slave help in the fields. So they fired up the populace with rhetoric, and got them to carry muskets and kill their fellow Americans.

 

[jimhallam]

A number of years ago I was invited to be a "special guest" at the 100th N-SSA skirmish in Winchester VA. I was on the saluting dias next to Jeb Stuart V (who has made a good career out of his ancestor!).
At 0800 the parade marched out of the mist -- columns of uniformed men -- accompanied by a Civil War brass band -- and as I used to be Musical Director of a British Brass Band -- - which is a different instrumentation --- I was enjoying BOTH of my interests.
Once the parade was assembled the Band played the National Anthem and people uncovered.
THEN the band played "Dixie" and I was amazed to see how many of the assembled troops trembled vigorously and clearly full of emotion. At long last I could understand how the resentment had lasted for well over a century.

 

[nkbj]

You can NOT discuss LEE in a vacuum. Stop trying. LEE is part of the WBTS and is woven into it including slavery.

Lee died three decades before they were invented so yeah, Lee could not have been in one.

 

[nkbj]

A number of years ago I was invited to be a "special guest" at the 100th N-SSA skirmish in Winchester VA. I was on the saluting dias next to Jeb Stuart V (who has made a good career out of his ancestor!).
At 0800 the parade marched out of the mist -- columns of uniformed men -- accompanied by a Civil War brass band -- and as I used to be Musical Director of a British Brass Band -- - which is a different instrumentation --- I was enjoying BOTH of my interests.
Once the parade was assembled the Band played the National Anthem and people uncovered.
THEN the band played "Dixie" and I was amazed to see how many of the assembled troops trembled vigorously and clearly full of emotion. At long last I could understand how the resentment had lasted for well over a century.

Wow; an awesome depiction of the persistence of culture.