Risks with powder horn

[watervole]

I received this Email from someone who had seen my first horn on a forum:

...but it is best not to use glue on the base plug. The base plug is the safety valve, & should only be sealed with beeswax & secured by small pins. If the horn should take fire, the base plug should be able to blow out, rather than shatter the horn. Horns can take fire in many ways, from making fire & forgetting to remove the horn, from a spark if the plug has not been replaced, & from a spark on the plug where powder has become ingrained or even a spark in a brass spout as you have. Also from loading directly from the horn which should never be done.

I had a bit of a search but found nothing, so far. I can understand the reasoning, but on the other hand, I have seen plenty of horn, new ones and old ones too where the makers have used nails! And I haven't got the experience yet!

So what would your opinion be on this?

Actually, this might well be in the wrong forum, sorry!

 

[MSW]

I smell one of many 'old wives tales' coming on. ... Up there with the guy who wouldn't wear his seatbelt, explaining that if he saw that he was going to crash, he's jump into the back seat and that would save him.

While i'm unwilling to spend a horn testing it, i wouldn't be surprised if one were to make a horn and simply press fit the butt plug, then touch off powder in the horn, that you'd get shards of horn all over the place. And at a very high velocity.

Really, the only part of this quote which appears to be founded in fact is the last sentence, "[a]lso from loading directly from the horn which should never be done."

I think that a horn with powder in it should be treated with the same respect that you'd give a live grenade since, if that powder explodes, you have a primitive pipe bomb. I don't think that any amount of tinkering with the plug, or some other sort of magical thinking will make the horn any safer; that is the sole purview and responsibility of the operator.

I have made a few horns, and i will confess to using glue in all of them. It's not HC/PC, as i understand it, but i never said that anything i've built was.

The ones which i have not given away are all still tight (that is to say that moisture does not leak into the horn and dampen the powder), and i've had no complaints from those to whom i have given the remainder. I do have several horns 'on the table' and they'll be glued, too.

If you're making a horn, check out the Silbey's book, available at Track of the Wolf
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...tId=1&subId=12&styleId=39&partNum=BOOK-R18CPH

(hope that link works). This was the text which got me started, and i've found it to be both clear and instructive. And well worth the money. As an aside, i would be willing to hazard that the originals would have used the glues which we have in our adhesive arsenal if the had been available at the time.

Just one guy's free advice, and no doubt worth every penny!

 

[watervole]

Ah, thank you MSW. I have to say, I was dubious about that one. I couldn't see the horn itself remaining intact with the exploding black powder inside it!

I have got the Sibley book, it's indeed very good and guiding my work.

 

[Robert Scheffler]

As an added note of caution, never leave the plug off your ball bag, if a spark gets in there you could have round balls flying all over the place.

 

[2172]

it sounds like one of the nanny government types doing the usual...I use pins and beeswax on the butt of my horn, just because that's what I like, not for any of these lame reasons..Hank

 

[MSW]

As an added note of caution, never leave the plug off your ball bag, if a spark gets in there you could have round balls flying all over the place.

hey, that's right: you wouldn't want your balls flying about.

By the way- i never meant to impune anyone else's method: if the wax and pin method works for you, by all means go for it. Just meant that the glue method works well for me, and that's what i'll stick with (pardon the pun- i'm going to Pun Hell anyway).

 

[BrownBear]

Wives tale or not, if I couldn't seal my horns I'd have to quit shooting. In my wet climate it doesn't take long to turn powder into black soup.

 

I have a friend that had a major house fire and there were a number of horns, with powder in them, in the house. During the subsequent clean up some of the horns were found that had been burned clean through and not one exploded during the fire. I too have heard of horns going off but I think it is the exception, not the rule, and good common sense and safety practice will go a lot farther than whether you use glue or pins.
Mark

 

[tg]

I also suspec an over acive imagination and inclination to think of any of the worst possible case scenarios that have never been documented as an actual threat I would not loose any sleep over a glued horn butplug, a lot of "myths" are slowly dying due to theis comminication medias effect but some die hard and there always seem to be more to come, I have heard of terrible things that can happen that never came up at all 40 years ago Safety should always be of a main concern but need be tempered with common sense.

 

[Macon Due]

tg
Ya know,I think you are right. In this 'safety concious, everyone afraid world a lot of people go a bit overboard. Remember when we were kids.....we actually rode our bikes without a Helmet!!! Now every little kid looks like a space cadet.Oh well.........
Macon

 

[watervole]

Hehehe...yes, no helmets.. You know,I didn't even have brakes on my bike! Only fell off once or twice, and I am still here. Even used to climb trees and hang around the edge of rivers on my own, and never drowed myself! Yes, indeed, common sense sometimes seems to be in short supply. I'll use glue again, although I tend to prefer to use all natural material, so it's likely I'll use beeswax, because I like the stuff, it's good for bees that we use the wax too.

 

[tg]

You can cook down some rawhide and make your own period glue.If I recall, add bit of ash and pine pitch and you have natures epoxy.

 

[hanshi]

My horn bases are all tacked in and press fitted as a matter of habit. I never thought one way or another about how it would burn or explode. Still don't.

 

[Dave K]

All of the ones I have made are pressed in, pinned with locust thorns and then water glass is used to seal it from moisture. I place some water glass inside the horn, slosh it around and then let it dry. I doubt if it is near as dangerous as a brass flask.

 

[omarick1948]

This is one of those myths that makes it's rounds every once in awhile for the "run and hide under the bed crowd!

Sure, there probably has been a powder horn explode somewhere at sometime from who knows what, and someone can always find an excuse to throw a wrench in the mix, just to try to quench the fire!

When we talk about myths, one myth s that original horns always were just sealed with bee's wax and pinned! ... Researching powder horn making and personally making several hundred powder horns for the passed 35 plus years. I have seen many, many powder horns that have been sealed with bee's wax, pine tar, hide glue and other concoctions from using nothing to buffalo spit!

Makes you wonder why the powder companies crimp-seal their metal and no-seamed molded plastic powder containers!

By the way! .. Several years back, I did see an experiment at a range, where a M/L club staged an experiment with an old intact imported powder horn with a long length of cannon fuse in the spout hole and sealed with hardened wood putty or ? and lite at a safe distance away from spectators. The horn was about half full of fffg. The fuse burnt down and there was alot of fire flare out of the spout end and a big SWOOOSH!, but no explosion like antisipated. We examined the horn after the event and found the horn was just pinned with no apparent bee's wax or glue used it construction. Of course, this was a controlled experiment and only mention it here, as one example!

I admit to be no expert on any subject, but I won't loose sleep worrying about horn explosions either! .... call me reckless, but I have and always glue my base plugs!

Rick

 

[George]

Sure, there probably has been a powder horn explode somewhere at sometime from who knows what...

I run across occasional reports of exploding horns in my reading, and they sound pretty violent.

"Accros_the_Rockies_to_the_Columbia", by John Kirk Townsend, published in 1839 describing a 1834 trip:

"In about an hour after, an unpleasant accident happened to one of our men, named McCarey. He had been running a buffalo, and was about reloading the gun, which he had just discharged, when the powder in his horn was ignited by a burning wad remaining in the barrel; the horn was burst to fragments, the poor man dashed from his horse, and his face, neck, and hands, burnt in a shocking manner. We applied, immediately, the simple remedies which our situation and the place afforded, and in the course of an hour he was somewhat relieved, and travelled on with us, though in considerable suffering. His eyes were entirely closed, the lids very much swollen, and his long, flowing hair, patriarchal beard and eye-brows, had all vanished in smoke. It will be long ere he gets another such crop. " (Chapter VI)

The Pennsylvania Gazette
August 14, 1735
Boston, July 28. We have the following sorrowful Account from Woodbury in the Colony of Connecticut, viz. That a few Weeks ago, the House of one Johnson of that Town, catch'd on Fire in the Night Time, and got to a great head before it was discovered. The Man happen'd that Night to be abroad, and there were at home only the Woman and four Children; she being awakened, hastened to the Room where the Children lay, and to her surprise found it on Fire, but yet took Courage, and accordingly saved them all, by lifting them out of the Windows, but afterwards it so happen'd, that in getting out herself, a Horn of Gun -Powder which hung over the Window took Fire, and blew her away back into the Room, where she was burnt to Death; hardly any Thing of her Remains were to be found the next Day, but two or three of her Bones.

I doubt if beeswax and wooden pegs could have saved them.

Spence

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Sounds like the horn going off was just the icing on the cake of DOOM, poor woman!

Dave

 

[Len Graves]

That is very true. I know several shooters that you have saved from that malady. After all they are live bullets! Stay vigilant.

 

[Len Graves]

About the safety and helmet thing. I'll give you a Gordy Howe quote: When asked why he wore a cup but not a helmet he said "you can always get someone to do your thinking for you".

 

[tg]

I would suspect the amount of powder in a horn could effect the pressure spike and the quality/thickness of the horn itself, likley no two situations would or have ever been alike.There is a grea difference in the sound of a tight combo in a gun going off and a real sloppy one, grade/quility of powder also could be factors.