Rifles of the 1830s

[BigSkyRambler]

Kind of a nebulous title, I know. I have been through a pile of muzzleloaders during the past decade, some custom, some production, but did not do so with intent to do buckskinning. Now that I am semi-retired and living in an area where some opportunities exist, I want to kit up correctly. Working on getting my buckskins and mocs in order. But I am torn on the right (?) rifle. Currently, I have a real nice Late Lancaster that will have both percussion and flintlocks. But looking at some Hawken and Leman style rifles as well. Would like to have a rifle to convert back and forth from flint to percussion. Most custom Hawkens I see are set up as only percussion capable. By the mid-1830s, what would be the most common rifles in the Rocky Mountain fur trade? I know I will get flooded, but hit me with all that you have. Wife is out of town and I need the stimulation! LOL.

 

[rich pierce]

A good resource is “for trade and treaty”, an inexpensive book. Much more informative than the internet.
Henry, Deringer, Tryon, and many other makers produced far more rifles than the Hawken brothers. Leman rifles were made in this period but in far greater numbers from the 1840s on. The number of flintlock Hawken rifles made in the 1830s for the western trade is unknown, and perhaps only one Hawken rifle made in this period as a flintlock is known.
The jockeying back and forth between percussion and flint is expensive, difficult, and generally will require 2 locks and barrels. Setting up 2 barrels in the same stock is not trivial. The tangs need to be identical. I’ve done it and thought a great idea to have 3 barrels for one rifle. Over the 43 years since then I’ve made a lot more guns for myself so I usually use just one barrel.

If you look up “Lancaster pattern trade rifle”, “Henry scroll guard trade rifle”, “Tryon trade rifle” and “Deringer trade rifle” you will see a lot of guns that went west.

 

[Kansas Jake]

The Henry Lancaster pattern rifle was a common trade rifle in the period you mentioned along with their English pattern.

 

[tenngun]

Leman rifles were fitted with drum and cone( nipple) this makes them easier to convert between flint and percussion. Hawken types often have a pattern breach, that makes it a might harder to convert. By 1830 flint was well on its way out, not gone, but growing less. Long full stock rifles with drum and cone would continue to be seen out west well past the late unpleasantness between the states.

 

[rich pierce]

The Henry Lancaster pattern rifle was a common trade rifle in the period you mentioned along with their English pattern.

The Henry English pattern trade rifle has a lot of appeal to me.

Comfortable to shoot in a big bore and sturdy all around.

To mine what has been said here this is a good thread Mountain Man rifles

 

[Grenadier1758]

Listen to Rich. In the 1830's Hawken rifles were a rarity. Of course, so were Mountain Men.

@BigSkyRambler, Your late Lancaster rifle would fit right in to the period in either flint or percussion configuration much better than a Hawken.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Agreed on your Late Lancaster. I too have one in .50 flint originally. I converted it to percussion by simply using a drum/nipple and swapping out the lock. Was very lucky in the fact the original builder was very thoughtful when inletting for the flintlock and placement of the vent liner. It was a rifle he built for himself with the thought process of a possible future conversion. It is only mere minutes to convert back and forth.
Walk

 

[BigSkyRambler]

Agreed on your Late Lancaster. I too have one in .50 flint originally. I converted it to percussion by simply using a drum/nipple and swapping out the lock. Was very lucky in the fact the original builder was very thoughtful when inletting for the flintlock and placement of the vent liner. It was a rifle he built for himself with the thought process of a possible future conversion. It is only mere minutes to convert back and forth.
Walk

OK. I think I am good with the rifle I have. It is a TVM marked M AVANCE and I suspect it was also built with easy switching back and forth in mind. I guess I will see when the large Siler flintlock I bought from a guy on this forum gets here!

 

[Grenadier1758]

That's a Siler lock. The Siler flint lock should just about drop in.

What caliber is your TVM late Lancaster?

 

[hanshi]

One of my .45 rifles, my go-to deer rifle, is a TVM I got long ago. You have a fine one.

 

[BigSkyRambler]

That's a Siler lock. The Siler flint lock should just about drop in.

What caliber is your TVM late Lancaster?

I'm hoping for very little fitting. It is a .50 rifle. Not sure what has been possessing me to want to get rid of it. I guess "The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky russet"

 

[Walkingeagle]

Here’s mine...
Walk

 

[BigSkyRambler]

Now that's what I'm talking about.

 

[hawkeye2]

I'm hoping for very little fitting. It is a .50 rifle. Not sure what has been possessing me to want to get rid of it. I guess "The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky russet"

Douglas Adams, shame he passed so young, had so much to offer.

 

[BigSkyRambler]

Douglas Adams, shame he passed so young, had so much to offer.

Yep. I also have a well worn set of third generation cassette tapes if the BBC radio version. Then I bought the CD set, and discovered that many of the chapters are in the wrong order.

 

[BJm]

Having a rifle/shotgun with interchangable barrels & locks is a big bonus when travelling to & from competitions etc. If you have a stock that fits you then why bother to carry two complete firearms. I am a lefty ( normal shooter lol ) & have a custom shotgun with two barrels & two locks. It only takes a couple of minutes to change from percussion to flintlock & it all fits into 1 case including 1 range rod. of course it is much easier with wedges rather than pins to remove the barrel. I haven't done this with rifles though because i have a vast collection of different styles in flintlock. I have seen many attempts to use the same rifle by just removing the drum, screw in a vent liner & change the locks over, but it gets very messy & worn threads in the barrel/drum & vent liner are usually the result. 2 barrels & 2 locks is the way to go.

 

[Capnball]

The nice thing about a Lyman rifle is you can get them in either rock or percussion locks. They're affordable enough to own both. A good custom flinter or percussion could easily go up to a couple grand. The lyman's can be found for around $700 and even less used. Just a thought. I own both a percussion and a flintlock rifle and I also have one of those muzzleloader rifles who's action shall remain nameless! A little bit of everything. I like them all.

 

[JCKelly]

Hawkens -- if you continually browse the auctions you may find things not in The Books. One such was sold by Rock Island Auction. Looks to me like the drum is newish, with work done ?whenever? on the lock. http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/66/lid/1135 They say -

This rifle is stamped "S. HAWKEN" in a downward angle and "ST. LOUIS" in an upward angle on the barrel behind the notch sight. Samuel Hawken arrived in St. Louis in 1822 fifteen years after his brother Jacob, and the pair operated separate businesses until around 1845 when the J&S Hawken factory appears in St. Louis records. In 1849, Jacob Hawken died during a cholera outbreak. Samuel reverted to stamping rifles with the marking noted above. Though Samuel and William Hawken moved to Colorado by the years just before the Civil War, the St. Louis shop remained open into the early 20th century under the control of J. P. Gemmer. Hawken rifles were carried by many enterprising men in the West especially the famous mountain men. Among the most notable owners of Hawken rifles were Kit Carson, Jim Bridgers, Joseph Meek, and Theodore Roosevelt. This rifle is an early example of Samuel Hawken's work given the lack of a patent breech and apparent conversion from flint to percussion. It has a Riddle lock plate with hunting scene engraved at the tail. The front sight is a dovetailed blade, and there is a second dovetail just behind it. It has double set triggers and is mounted with a checkered, straight wrist, half stock with beavertail cheekpiece and brass furniture including the patch box which contains a ramrod fitting and starting piece for the muzzle. The stock also has silver escutcheons.

Condition:

Good with period alterations and some more recent touch ups. The barrel and lock have a mottled mixture of artificial brown patina, oxidation, pitting, and a few spots of applied finish. The lock has some open holes from conversion. The front ramrod pipe has been reattached, and the sights have been changed. The stock is fine with crisp checkering, various minor marks and scratches, a brass plate added at the breech (protects against flash damage), and a few slight hairline cracks. The lock and set triggers function perfectly together. Most of the markings are clear.

 

[RB POWELL]

I don't know if some of you folks realize how truly amazing your knowledge reservoir is. I'm too long in the tooth now to catalog what you guys (gals) know. But I sure enjoy feasting vicariously. Anyway, thanks for taking me on the ride.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

The 1830's were an incredibly important historical transitional period...the Alamo in 1836 had an unknown number of flints vs. percussion rifles on both sides. I have read numerous books on this subject and they all differ.