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Rifle Shoppe Caliver Historicity

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Does anyone have more information on the time period and/or place of origin for the two calivers on the Rifle Shoppe?
The first one looks like a generic 17th century musket scaled down. It does mention "The original", but only that it had a trigger bar. The second one also references an original, but the only thing I can find related to it is this picture, which shows exactly it, but I cannot find any actual information.
Arquebus.jpg

Any information would greatly appreciated!
 
Does anyone have more information on the time period and/or place of origin for the two calivers on the Rifle Shoppe?
The first one looks like a generic 17th century musket scaled down. It does mention "The original", but only that it had a trigger bar. The second one also references an original, but the only thing I can find related to it is this picture, which shows exactly it, but I cannot find any actual information.
View attachment 145077
Any information would greatly appreciated!
Not being familiar with TRS offerings its hard to give an answer. But do I know this firm strive to do good work & a usefull service.
Re such as you depict & knowing a bit about such arms Ide say there being no set pattern as they will vary gun to gun be they Full musket . Caliver & other' Smaller shoots' If you have a particular war or situation this might help to take a good guestimate for your needs . I made a caliver & a petronel for the gunner of the' Golden Hinde' years ago with all the related accoutrements . They now reside in a Winnipeg Museum . Where I to cater for a ECW Reenactor Ide make a later style but they would all have varied. If the general guide of a ball " 10 standing 12 rowling & Fower foot barrel" would be about the nearest to specs and fit the general run of such arms but then you get the' Smaller shoots 'indifferent bore under Arquebuss' ect derided by one contempory as being less able to "Doth Muther more Be it farr or nere & better cheap '' Theirs always an accountant . Trust that helps '
Rudyard
 
Not being familiar with TRS offerings its hard to give an answer. But do I know this firm strive to do good work & a usefull service.
Re such as you depict & knowing a bit about such arms Ide say there being no set pattern as they will vary gun to gun be they Full musket . Caliver & other' Smaller shoots' If you have a particular war or situation this might help to take a good guestimate for your needs . I made a caliver & a petronel for the gunner of the' Golden Hinde' years ago with all the related accoutrements . They now reside in a Winnipeg Museum . Where I to cater for a ECW Reenactor Ide make a later style but they would all have varied. If the general guide of a ball " 10 standing 12 rowling & Fower foot barrel" would be about the nearest to specs and fit the general run of such arms but then you get the' Smaller shoots 'indifferent bore under Arquebuss' ect derided by one contempory as being less able to "Doth Muther more Be it farr or nere & better cheap '' Theirs always an accountant . Trust that helps '
Rudyard
Rudyard, do you have a picture of the caliver you made? I would love to see it.

My original question is a result of the relative dearth in caliver information available online. This caliver (replica) actually has a lot of context, such as the location and date of manufacture (Suhl, 1610). It even closely resembles the caliver from the Dutch drill.
caliver.jpg

Cool video example

The two on the rifle shoppe are different enough from these, that they piqued their curiosity. All their other matchlocks have really good contextual information, which is why these two are a little disappointing.

The question o of historicity is also a result of their snapping matchlock, which is based on the type found on the Mary Rose wreck. In their defense, they do say it is "similar" and not an exact copy, but it does notably differ from original examples in the barrel profile (octagon to round vs octagon), stock shape (chunkier buttstock), and trigger (less decretive). The originals can be seen on the Royal Armories website.
snapping matchlocks.png
 
Well Yes re the Caliver & Petronel for the ' Golden Hinde' (They liked the added ' E') I worked on rigging her at the Yards at Appledore when I delivered the guns . & the three' Mary Rose' type snap matchlocks are a style I made numbers of since they lend the datable use of shoulder stocks, rear peep sights & the so supierior snap matchlock ( For International shooting matches though now they restrict it to the Japonees copies with the docked butt ends )with the in effect' pistol grip.'& a trigger where modern people like them to be ! Look up Matchlocks in Alberta one of mine is veiwed.of that type in use . Though I made them I don' t have a pic of the ECW style but their useually fishtail stocked with trigger guards & the common lock. Can I ask quite why you seek this info ? I might have a pic of one I made for ' Henry Kranks' owner (A UK firm) That he planned to send to India as a pattern . but don.t know if it actually went . Since you got the three 'Mary Rose'type Venietian wouldn't the RA have pics of later ones ? .
Regards Rudyard .

PS Ile try add the pics one is me shooting the Hinde's caliver at Bisley's ' Short Sibierier ' and any I find (& this E gajet cant spell worth a hoot )
 
Well Yes re the Caliver & Petronel for the ' Golden Hinde' (They liked the added ' E') I worked on rigging her at the Yards at Appledore when I delivered the guns . & the three' Mary Rose' type snap matchlocks are a style I made numbers of since they lend the datable use of shoulder stocks, rear peep sights & the so supierior snap matchlock ( For International shooting matches though now they restrict it to the Japonees copies with the docked butt ends )with the in effect' pistol grip.'& a trigger where modern people like them to be ! Look up Matchlocks in Alberta one of mine is veiwed.of that type in use . Though I made them I don' t have a pic of the ECW style but their useually fishtail stocked with trigger guards & the common lock. Can I ask quite why you seek this info ? I might have a pic of one I made for ' Henry Kranks' owner (A UK firm) That he planned to send to India as a pattern . but don.t know if it actually went . Since you got the three 'Mary Rose'type Venietian wouldn't the RA have pics of later ones ? .
Regards Rudyard .

PS Ile try add the pics one is me shooting the Hinde's caliver at Bisley's ' Short Sibierier ' and any I find (& this E gajet cant spell worth a hoot )
My interest in this is twofold. I am looking for a kit/complete matchlock gun and these two were aesthetically interesting, while a somewhat more manageable size than a full musket. I wouldn’t want to get something I had no context for, which is why I was looking for that information. The other interest is that I am trying to develop a better understand of the development of matchlock firearms, hence my interest in the date and location of the originals.

I forgot that I actually did find another caliver on RA’s website, but nothing that matches the two on the rifle shoppe.
 
.Ide agree entirely' the top gun is late( If its stocking and scear' trikker' is very dated ) and the lower is in Lenk's book 'The Flintlock its origin & developement' shows a similar gun & stocking style '1640s Western Europe' . So I made one years ago the caliver would be about the" Fower foot brl 10 to the pound standing ,12 rowling "..But I doubt there was any decided 'Pattern 'much beyond that . If you have a set date period it may help pin it down .
Regards Rudyard
 
.Ide agree entirely' the top gun is late( If its stocking and scear' trikker' is very dated ) and the lower is in Lenk's book 'The Flintlock its origin & developement' shows a similar gun & stocking style '1640s Western Europe' . So I made one years ago the caliver would be about the" Fower foot brl 10 to the pound standing ,12 rowling "..But I doubt there was any decided 'Pattern 'much beyond that . If you have a set date period it may help pin it down .
Regards Rudyard
The main time period I’m looking for is the 30 years war. A secondary consideration are the late Italian wars, so mid 16th century.
 
.Ide agree entirely' the top gun is late( If its stocking and scear' trikker' is very dated ) and the lower is in Lenk's book 'The Flintlock its origin & developement' shows a similar gun & stocking style '1640s Western Europe' . So I made one years ago the caliver would be about the" Fower foot brl 10 to the pound standing ,12 rowling "..But I doubt there was any decided 'Pattern 'much beyond that . If you have a set date period it may help pin it down .
Regards Rudyard
Also, I appreciate the specific reference for the second caliver! It is my (newbie) understand that by the mid 17th century, most shoulder arms had a more consistent and “modern” looking stock design, so it’s surprising the rather unique look of the second one is from that period.
 
The Royal Armouries has this early caliver in its online collection. In the 1600s a caliver is the same style as a musket but with a shorter barrel and smaller bore size. Calivers also become less common after the first quarter of the 1600s.

1655665961935.png


1560 - 38.75" barrel - .65

https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-16003.html
 
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