Rich Hollis & Sons Shotgun, English Made

[GREENSWLDE]

I sent a post yesterday about Nipple threads.It seems to have not arrived.
Try again!!
This thread may well be British Association size 0 or as said here "OBA"
This Was 6m/m O/D X 25.4 TPI .Though not referred to as BA in 1830/40 was becoming a
Standard for small engineering.The whole range is from 16Ba (0.79"OD X134 TPI up to the 0BA mentioned. 9BA is quite commonly found as Bridle screws as is 8BA.
Anything below 10BA is rarely found today.
GUS we must have met at Wedgnock in the 90's as I shot Flint Shot Gun in both years..
Do you know the where abouts of Sy Smith If he is still with us?

OLD DOG..

 

[Pukka Bundook]

B Tom,

The lads have it fairly well covered I think.

The lock to bolster fit looks a bit off, but maybe just because lower end work, and the rake of the buttplate is most unusual, so I wonder if a provincial re-stock over this side of the pond?
as for bores, in M-loaders 14 was likely more common than 16, but any size was fine in those days. I have 15''s, 14's 19's and all sorts of oddities and all are as built.
That nipple would never be an original , and is far too long for any normal cap and will likely cause an off-set strike. Eley No 26 caps are not long, but neither are they irritatingly short as are most caps available now. I still hav ea good supply of No 26, and they are Much nicer to use.
(and they do not require a long nipple)
Can you show us photos of the proof marks please?
(Most likely under the breech)

All the best,
Richard.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Hy B.TOM,I have a listing for 0.677" bore as 15 bore and 0.693 as 14 bore.Both quite common in our M/L shot guns 1800 to 1860's.I even had the use of a Westley-Richards
14 bore center fire breach loader as young youth until we ran out of cartridges.

OLD DOG..

 

[TFoley]

No unique thread can be seen on my ramrod.

At the risk of thread-drift, what Parker-Hale firearm do you own?

 

[TFoley]

You will find that BA thread is used mostly on lock work screws 6 and 4 most 2 BA for the lock nail 0 Ba for the standing breech.
Feltwad

And yet it did not exist at all until in 1884 and was not standardised until 1903. Odd then, that this Scientific thread form should see use in a firearm of the middle 19th century.

 

[Feltwad]

And yet it did not exist at all until in 1884 and was not standardised until 1903. Odd then, that this Scientific thread form should see use in a firearm of the middle 19th century.

You may be right about the standardise date but the BA thread or some thread exactly the same was used long before that date . I have in my collection of gun maker and Lock makes tools several old screw plates which I still use to renew old lock screws with a BA thread.
Feltwad

 

[B Tom]

B Tom,

I can certainly understand your frustration, but from my experience as the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team (including two World Championships), I assure you what you are going through is VERY common when attempting to shoot original civilian percussion rifles and guns. Almost every one of the original percussion civilian made guns/rifles of the period of your gun and the Team shot, had to have the nipples replaced/updated to a modern thread, etc. In some cases, custom made nipples had to be made.

Gus

Yep, I agree that would sum things up. I don't think I would be the type to alter an antique rifle to accept a modern thread. I feel that would be shameful to do that to a gun with a world of history even if it is a so so gun in terms of quality and very limited popularity. A custom made nipple would make more sense to me, although I imagine this could be rather expensive, plus I'd have to really sure about the thread dimensions because it does not even seem to match Whitworth threads, so I've got a gun with unknown nipple thread design. I need to think about this one before I decide to keep the gun as a display piece only.

 

[B Tom]

I have been using a 15 ga. double percussion J. Manton for a while at the club and Friendship trap range. My loads have been 2 1/2 drams of Triple 7 and an ounce of #7 shot. Sevens have around 10 to 20 percent more inertia than 7 and 1/2s. I use a thin over powder wad from Mike's wads. It is sort of like two over shot wads sandwiched together that seals well. Then a half of a regular cushion wad is used, then and ounce of shot and over powder wad. This functions quite well in breaking clays at 10 to 16 yards from the trap house. A good idea is to blow out the shotgun before using. Snap a couple of caps first. Then put down a two dram or so of black powder with and over shot wad on top. Fire that in a safe area. Then you can be generally assured the gun's barrel is cleared of cleaning oils and so forth. Then the regular load is used. I use Triple 7 in the original guns because it is easy to clean. On cleaning Ballistol is a good source. To remove leading Scotch Brite pads work. Yes, you would do well to "proof" before using. Or, have a good black powder gunsmith look the gun over before using.

Very helpful information. I will use this if I can one day get a standard #11 or musket cap nipple installed on the gun. Thank you.

 

[Artificer]

GUS we must have met at Wedgnock in the 90's as I shot Flint Shot Gun in both years..
Do you know the where abouts of Sy Smith If he is still with us?
OLD DOG..

Hi OLD DOG,

I remember Cy Smith as a very warm and kind gentleman, though I did not know him nearly as well as some other Team Members. I got to know Cy through Donald "Bucky" Malson, who was a great friend and Mentor to me over many years before he passed. (The Team Members I knew best were long time shooters from the NSSA, though I also knew a couple from my Friendship Days in 1976-80.)

I'm afraid I lost track of Cy around the time I had to stop going to the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships around/slightly after 2005.

About the only old Team Member I have any contact with nowadays is Joe Davenport, who was not at the World Championships in either 96 or 98, but in many of the Zone and World Championships prior to that.

At the World Championships, I could normally be found at the picnic table beside one of the buildings, where with the gracious loan of a Vise from a British Team Member, I did various odd jobs for U.S. and other International Teams - or at times walking the line behind shooting line to give our Team Psychological Support. I usually had on a long brown Brownell's Apron and my Team Photo was in that outfit.

Gus

 

[B Tom]

I sent a post yesterday about Nipple threads.It seems to have not arrived.
Try again!!
This thread may well be British Association size 0 or as said here "OBA"
This Was 6m/m O/D X 25.4 TPI .Though not referred to as BA in 1830/40 was becoming a
Standard for small engineering.The whole range is from 16Ba (0.79"OD X134 TPI up to the 0BA mentioned. 9BA is quite commonly found as Bridle screws as is 8BA.
Anything below 10BA is rarely found today.
GUS we must have met at Wedgnock in the 90's as I shot Flint Shot Gun in both years..
Do you know the where abouts of Sy Smith If he is still with us?

OLD DOG..

Yep, The thread size on my gun seems to be long forgotten. Appreciate your feedback.

 

[Artificer]

Yep, I agree that would sum things up. I don't think I would be the type to alter an antique rifle to accept a modern thread. I feel that would be shameful to do that to a gun with a world of history even if it is a so so gun in terms of quality and very limited popularity. A custom made nipple would make more sense to me, although I imagine this could be rather expensive, plus I'd have to really sure about the thread dimensions because it does not even seem to match Whitworth threads, so I've got a gun with unknown nipple thread design. I need to think about this one before I decide to keep the gun as a display piece only.

B Tom,

If you know or could find a retired machinist and especially one who was into or intrigued by Muzzle Loading Guns, he/she could make you one that fits the original threads and not be too expensive, considering the gun could not be fired without it.

Gus

 

[B Tom]

B Tom,

The lads have it fairly well covered I think.

The lock to bolster fit looks a bit off, but maybe just because lower end work, and the rake of the buttplate is most unusual, so I wonder if a provincial re-stock over this side of the pond?
as for bores, in M-loaders 14 was likely more common than 16, but any size was fine in those days. I have 15''s, 14's 19's and all sorts of oddities and all are as built.
That nipple would never be an original , and is far too long for any normal cap and will likely cause an off-set strike. Eley No 26 caps are not long, but neither are they irritatingly short as are most caps available now. I still hav ea good supply of No 26, and they are Much nicer to use.
(and they do not require a long nipple)
Can you show us photos of the proof marks please?
(Most likely under the breech)

All the best,
Richard.

Photos included. I included a photo with the trigger down. The trigger to nipple setting seem off, possibly causing an off-set strike. So I really don't know if trigger and/or nipple are original. That's one of the reasons I wanted to know if any one else owned the same Rich Hollis & Sons shotgun. Can you provide me with the bore OD of your # 14's & 15's so that I can figure out the gauge size of my gun? Markings: Lock lower edge engraving forward of the hammer with Rich Hollis & Sons, Lock plate engraving has neatly executed foliate pattern scrolls, trigger guard engraved with a matching foliate pattern, Top of barrel breach engraving with LONDON stamped within 3 bands, Proof Marks (Top of breach left side) with crowned crossed sceptres with BPC (Birmingham definitive black powder for shotguns) and Crowned crossed sceptres with 'V' (Birmingham View mark).

 

[B Tom]

Hy B.TOM,I have a listing for 0.677" bore as 15 bore and 0.693 as 14 bore.Both quite common in our M/L shot guns 1800 to 1860's.I even had the use of a Westley-Richards
14 bore center fire breach loader as young youth until we ran out of cartridges.

OLD DOG..

So, if my gun is 0.678" to 0.688" ID, am I a 15 or 14 gauge? My numbers seem to fit in between yours and from what I have seen in literature.

 

[B Tom]

At the risk of thread-drift, what Parker-Hale firearm do you own?

I don't quite understand. I don't own any Parker-Hale firearms. My Rich Hollis & Sons gun was made between 1832 to 1840, whereas Parker-Hale was founded in early 1900's....

 

[B Tom]

B Tom,

If you know or could find a retired machinist and especially one who was into or intrigued by Muzzle Loading Guns, he/she could make you one that fits the original threads and not be too expensive, considering the gun could not be fired without it.

Gus

That would seem to be my only choice. I don't know any one personally that would be qualified to do it, so I guess I will need to ask around. This project will require some time.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

B Tom,

If your bore is a shade over 15 bore, it was likely bored as a 15, and with wear has gone over a bit, especially at the muzzle end.

Threads are pretty standard on many English nipples, but yes, I have had to make some as well!

Thanks for the proofs, Birmingham post 1813 as we would expect.

Best,
Rich.

 

[TFoley]

I don't quite understand. I don't own any Parker-Hale firearms. My Rich Hollis & Sons gun was made between 1832 to 1840, whereas Parker-Hale was founded in early 1900's....

Ah, apologies, in my confusion I thought you were discussing the continued use of obsolete pattern screw threads. Parker-Hale, in this case, continued to use the old-style and otherwise unused Enfield-form thread on the ram-rod end of all their replications.

 

[B Tom]

I thought I'd give you all an update. Driven by an earlier response from Feltwad and the rest of you helpful gents, I managed to get some BA 0ba bolts as well as BSF 1/4"-26tpi bolts for a fit test on the shotgun female thread. To my surprise the BSF 1/4"-26tpi thread type fit perfectly! I really don't know where I went wrong with some of my initial measurements, so I apologize if I confused the matter with the gang. It appears that although BSF type threads were standardized at the turn of the century, the thread size was used long before it was standardized (the gun was made sometime between 1832 - 1840). So, my next step is to slowly get a proper fitting nipple that uses standard percussion cap types (#11 percussion cap or musket cap). I wish I had more spare time to work on this project.... Slowly but surely I will get there.

 

[Zonie]

Based on this photo you provided, a #11 cap is what you want to use.
The nose of the hammer isn't large enough to work well with a musket size cap.

 

[Feltwad]

I thought I'd give you all an update. Driven by an earlier response from Feltwad and the rest of you helpful gents, I managed to get some BA 0ba bolts as well as BSF 1/4"-26tpi bolts for a fit test on the shotgun female thread. To my surprise the BSF 1/4"-26tpi thread type fit perfectly! I really don't know where I went wrong with some of my initial measurements, so I apologize if I confused the matter with the gang. It appears that although BSF type threads were standardized at the turn of the century, the thread size was used long before it was standardized (the gun was made sometime between 1832 - 1840). So, my next step is to slowly get a proper fitting nipple that uses standard percussion cap types (#11 percussion cap or musket cap). I wish I had more spare time to work on this project.... Slowly but surely I will get there.

.
Glad you got the nipple size sorted . All English sporting shotguns and rifle used 1/4 and 9/32 BSF thread I would say that the BSF thread for nipples first became used after the patch lock period of 1810-30.
Feltwad
A Early Patch Lock to Percussion Conversion fitted with a 1/4 BSF thread