Revolver question

[L.B. Myers]

Hi All,

I am confused about an article I read here covering the proper loading and shooting of black powder revolvers. Perhaps someone can lead me down the correct path:

I have a New Army (Remington replica by Euro Arms) revolver that I have been shooting for a couple of years. It's a 44 cal. and using a .454 ball. Never any problem with cross fire.

I read where cornstarch is added above the patch and under the ball. Why is this being recommended? The author explained it however I didn

 

It is unnecessarily used as a filler.

The ball should be seated with force against the powder.

Wadds of any kind are also unnecessary.

Powder first, oversized ball shaving a lead ring as it is seated, stiff grease over the ball until the cylender is filled.

The lube is what stops the chain fires, not filler or wonder wads or anything else. The origionals used hog lard or tallow, latter axle grease.

I have used Crisco for 35 years without a chainfire. Powder, oversized ball, crisco, that's all you actually need, everything else is just a confusion factor.

Of course 50 people will call me a fool and a liar, but I have developed a thick skin.

When I began shooting BP one of the reasons I enjoyed it was because it was cheap. I had family responsibilities up the wazoo and could barely afford powder and caps. Guess what, Wonder Wads had not been invented, Bore Butter was unknown, Pyrodex was not even a gleam in Hogdon's eye!

We used any texture powder we could find, including cannon grade, and considered ourselves lucky when we could find RWS caps instead of the normal Remington variety.

Always consider that these guns were designed to be carried on ones' belt, and reloaded fron the supplies one had on his belt, in his saddlebags or shooting bag. I have never seen an invoice or orders from either the confederate or union forces where wonder wads or corn meal filler was part of the loading process.

If you are out shooting your C&B revolver for the pure fun of shooting, simplify the process and keep having fun. Just because someone else wishes to complicate their shooting is no reason you have too.

:results:

 

Most of the newer BP-writers agree that a chain fire isn't ignited by the fire coming out of the front of the cylinder, but from loosely fitting caps. Even if you pinch them, the nipple is conical and the possibility to loosen a cap by recoil is more likely than a spark going ito a chamber-mouth with an oversized, tight fitting ball. :m2c:

Additionally, may be the crisco-stunt works in Kentucky, but show me that here in Southern Nevada from March to September! It's a total mess, you feel like bathing your forearms in grease, after the 1st shot all the other chambers spill out the liquified crisco, and if you use a holster, you'll ruin it in a short time.

The only thing here is to use a wad. True, the Wonder-Wads are exeptionally expensive (best prices @ Midsouth Shooters Supply), but you can get unlubed wads 1000 for $ 20.00 at www.buffaloarms.com and bathe them in melted (not boiled) crisco, let them dry on a baking paper, and, voil

 

[Stumpkiller]

but you can get unlubed wads 1000 for $ 20.00

$20 ! ! ! They ain't doin you no favor.

Track of the Wolf: 455" diameter, ideal for .45 caliber pistols, .125" over powder card, 1000 for $7.50

 

[crockett]

I don't blame you for being confused about how to load a cap and ball revolver. There are a lot of options. I starter out with powder, a tight fitting ball, and grease. This works well unless the weather is hot. This method allow you to use the maximum amount of powder and was probably preferred by gun fighters. Some folks wanted a more mild, "target" load. With black powder you must have the ball down on the powder to eliminate air. If this is done with a smaller powder charge then the ball is seated very low in the chamber. This theoretically is bad for accuracy so some folks use corn meal, cream of wheat, etc to overcome this. This method has powder, then the filler, say cornmeal, then the ball, then grease. This puts the ball just below the end of the cylinder, which is best for accuracy.
Elmer Keith, in his classic book, Six Guns" has a chapter on black powder. He used felt wads cut from an old hat. Today pre-cut wads are available. When these wads are lubed then the general feeling is that adding grease to the end of the chamber is no longer necessary. With this method it is powder, the wad, the ball. This works out very well in hot climates.
I always loaded directly from a flask because that is the way it is shown in all the magazines. About a month ago there was a thread on this forum about the danger of this practice. It only takes a second to pour from a flask to a measure and then to the chamber.
I recently read that some folks are now using powder, cream of wheat, wad, ball, AND THEN GREASE! Even without grease the flames would have to pass the ball, the wad, and the filler to reach the powder.
I believe the powder,ball, gease, and the powder, lubed wad, tight ball methods have been safety used for years but do whatever is in your comfort area.

 

[bdarin]

Like Ghost, I started shooting BP revolver back in '72. Poured unknown grade of powder directly into cylinder (I used a plastic ketchup squirter bottle) till it looked right, ball, cap, fire. Never had a chainfire, rarely cleaned the gun, never used a wad or a filler. Just had fun with it and lived to tell the tale. Maybe ignorance is bliss, or maybe all that modern stuff is just more :bull: in our already too-complicated lives. I still shoot the pistol, the only changes I've made are: I measure the powder, clean the gun more often, and use Pyrodex. It's still fun. :m2c: :results: :thumbsup:

 

$20 ! ! ! They ain't doin you no favor.

Track of the Wolf: 455" diameter, ideal for .45 caliber pistols, .125" over powder card, 1000 for $7.50

Too bad when you shoot only .36 Navys!

And, it's not a felt wad, but a cardboard chip (mostly used for filling up black powder cartridges as my BP-cartridge division friends of my club told me).

For .36" I could not find any cheaper wads than Buffalo's. :results:

 

[Gatofeo]

I cut my own wads from cowboy hats found at thrift stores, from hats made of wool felt, not polyester. You may also use felt stripping used to seal around windows. However, make sure it's felt; most sealing strips anymore are polyester or rubber.
I much prefer using a greased wad.
When I started shooting cap and ball revolvers, about 1970, I used Crisco exclusively over the ball. Despite this, in one revolver, I experienced three separate incidents of multiple ignition.
I wasn't hurt in any of the incidents but the last one ruined the revolver --- a cheap, brass-framed, incorrect replica of the Colt Navy in .44 caliber. I didn't lose much.
I'm one of those who can't believe that multiple ignition begins from the front of the cylinder. I believe it is caused by flame entering a nipple whose cap has been knocked off by recoil, or from loose-fitting caps.
I pinch my caps into an oval shape so they cling to the nipple and won't fall off while shooting or handling.

Back to revolver wads:
Not only are they less messy to use, but I believe that a proper felt (not paper or fiber) wad helps scrape fouling from the bore with each shot.
I've noticed this myself, but it seems to work best with an old 19th century lubricant recipe I found in a 1943 American Rifleman.
That recipe is:
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight, not volume.

The inclusion of paraffin in the lubricant noticeably stiffens the felt wad. This, I believe, makes it a more effective fouling scraper as it travels down the bore. I've used identical wads with melted Crisco and the results were not nearly as good.
If I use Crisco or CVA Grease Patch over the ball, without a wad between ball and powder, my bore is fairly clear of fouling about halfway from the rear forward. Then it suddenly looks like a gopher hole.
But when I use a wad, with the above 19th century lubricant recipe, the bore is clean clear to the muzzle.
Explain it? I can't, except in theory. But I know what I see.
Accuracy is better too. And I can shoot all day without once swabbing the bore.
I cannot say that of commercially offered felt wads with dry lubricant. I've never found them as effective. Haven't used a dry-lubed wad since I discovered the above lubricant recipe.
I shoot a Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy in .36 caliber, an Uberti-made Remington 1858 in .44 caliber, a Pietta-made Colt 1860 in .44 caliber, a Pietta-made Remington Navy in .36 caliber and an Armi San Marcos 1862 Colt in .36 caliber. All have responded equally favorably to the use of a felt wad between ball and powder, and thoroughly soaked in the above, melted lubricant.
I use the same lubricant to grease my Lee conical bullets of .36 and .44 caliber.
My cartridge guns, when loaded with black powder, use bullets of soft lead and the same lubricant. I also use the above lubricant for patches in my .50-caliber muzzleloading rifle.
I'd never go back to grease over the ball when I can use a lubricated felt wad.

Fillers ...
Not corn starch, but corn meal is often used as a filler.
This practice started, as far as I've been able to trace, in the 1940s among pistol shooters who were shooting original guns. They believed that the filler placed the ball closer to the rear of the barrel, so the ball wouldn't have to travel so far before it reached the rifling.
If the ball traveled far, it was believed, then accuracy was sure to be affected.
It may have had value back then, when original guns with pitted chambers were common.
Today, the use of fillers has come into question.
For one thing, let's face facts: most cap and ball revolvers have rather minimal sights and are not made for target shooting (Ruger's Old Army and the Patridge-sighted Remingtons excepted).
I doubt very much that you could tell the difference between a load with a filler, and one without, in a Colt with its notched hammer for a rear sight and a shiny, brass bead for a front sight.
In the Remington, even with its better sight picture, I don't believe that a difference could be seen.
In a Ruger Old Army in a Ransom Rest (removing the human factor), with carefully weighed loads and weighed balls, you might --- MIGHT --- see a difference on target.
Frankly, I sometimes use corn meal as a filler with light loads in my cap and ball revolvers but I do it more out of habit. I can't honestly point to a target and proclaim, "This group is tighter because I used a corn meal filler."
Most of the loads I use in my cap and ball revolvers are full loads, or nearly so --- as Sam Colt and God intended.
That means 24 grs. of FFFG in my Colt Navy, 30 grains in the Remington .36, 20 grains in my Colt 1862 Police and 35 to 40 grains in my .44 revolvers.
Corn meal is preferred because it's more forgiving than Cream of Wheat, which is often suggested too. Corn meal will compress a bit, if you add too much. Cream of Wheat doesn't compress and may necessitate removing the ball if you can't get it rammed below the mouth of the chamber.
In very light loads, say 15 grains in the .44 and 10 grains in the .36 Navy, then a filler is justified. The Remington has a short rammer, compared to the Colt, so the filler ensures that there is no gap between powder and ball.

 

[Musketeer]

Filler between powder and ball is used in reduced power loads not only for accuracy (which BTW I think is bogus), but also for safety reasons. The old standard concerning blackpowder is that there shouldn't be any air space between powder and ball. When you load say 15 or 20 gr. of powder into a .44 cal. cap & ball cylinder, the rammer on the gun isn't going to be long enough to fully seat the ball on top of the powder, leaving an air space. The wad between powder and ball is used to seal the chamber (which again I think is bogus since a tight fitting ball should already do this) and also to act as a "scraper and luber" of the bore. If you're shooting a .44 revolver with light loads, kill two birds w/ one stone: TOTW sells .455 diameter 1/2" thick fiber wads @ 500 for $7.50. You can lube these up and cut them (if necessary) to desired length and they act as filler and wad both! They work! :thumbsup:
www.trackofthewolf.com #WAD-455-C

 

[crockett]

I was wondering if Gatofeo could elaborate more on the chain firing from the nipple end of the cylinder. I read about this a few days ago and,quite frankly, had never heard of it before. Got talking to some of the local crowd and one guy claims the flame comes out of the fired chamber's nipple and then sort of follows the inside curvature of the hammer down to the lower(opposite side)chamber and if the cap got knocked loose, then a chain firing could occur. He claimed this was very rare and most chain firings occur at the open end of the cylinder.
Did all the chambers fire? :hmm:

 

[Gatofeo]

Back in the early 1970s I had a cheap, brass-framed copy of the 1851 Colt in .44 caliber. With it, I experienced multiple ignition on three separate occasions. The last incident ruined the gun.
Aside from rattled nerves, I was uninjured.
Back then, I didn't yet use a greased felt wad twixt ball and powder. Like most, I slathered Crisco over the ball after seating it firmly on the powder.
Frankly, I always shot full loads in this revolver. I believe my maximum load was 30 grs of DuPont FFFG black powder. Pyrodex hadn't come along yet and the only approved (and sane) propellant was black powder.
During this time, I also did not pinch the caps into an elliptical shape to better grasp the nipple. They were simply pushed firmly onto the nipple.
Frankly, even in those days, I just couldn't see how flame could get around a tight-fitting ball. I was using .451 inch balls and never had a problem with them moving forward from recoil. They remained steadfast.
However, on numerous occasions the recoil of one shot would blow the cap off a nearby nipple. At that time, I didn't realize how dangerous this was; I viewed it as a minor inconvenience.
Many years later, I fired my Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy in the dark and was amazed at the amount of flame it bellowed. A friend also fired it, so I could watch the flame between the cylinder and barrel.
It was this night that I learned that a lot of flame comes back through the nipple as well. So much, that it will surprise you --- even if you have nipples with very small orifices.
This is why it's crucial that your caps fit firmly on the nipple and don't drop off during handling or get blown off from blast and recoil.
That revolver of long ago was a good teacher.
Looking from the back of the cylinder, imagine each chamber has a clock number: 12, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10.
The first multiple ignition occured in the 2 and 6 o'clock chambers, as I recall. No damage was noted.
The second multiple ignition, some months later, occured in the 2 o'clock chamber. No damage noted.
The third multiple ignition, months later, again occurred in the 2 and 6 o'clock chambers. This last incident swelled the end of the rammer and broke its screw.
It was a cheap, Italian or Spanish-made gun so I didn't bother with repairs. I gave it to a muzzleloading enthusiast of my father's, as a parts gun.
Multiple ignition is not a common event. In fact, I'm the only person that I know who has experienced one. I've heard of others, but never actually met anyone has experienced a multiple ignition.
And I experienced it three times!
It sure gets your attention. Recoil is much stiffer and the blast is greater, as you can imagine. You know immediately that something was NOT right.
Since those days some 30 years ago, I have yet to experience any more multiple ignitions. I credit this to using quality made guns, caps squeezed into an elliptical shape and the grace of the gods.
I had one humorous incident with my Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy. In college I roomed with two guys and kept my black powder flask in a root cellar. The cellar didn't seem overly damp and it was a convenient place to keep it.
One day, my buds and I decided to do some shooting. I brought the Colt Navy along to the local gravel pit.
I poured 24 grains of FFFG black powder into it and seated the ball, then capped it.
The first shot sounded no louder than the aftermath of eating a green chili burrito!
A buddy began yelling, "Hold it! Hold it! Don't fire!" so I lowered the revolver. He walked forward about 10 feet and picked up the ball. He'd seen it go patooey out of the barrel!
The 2nd shot wasn't much better! After that, I removed the barrel from the Colt and fired the remaining four cylinders without the barrel, to rid the balls from the chamber. This is a decided advantage of the Colt design --- it has a built-in "eraser" should you need to remove a ball.
Anyway, I took a lot of hoshing from my friends.
It was later found that the powder in the flask had absorbed a lot of moisture in that root cellar.
I sprinkled it on sheets of newspaper in the backyard and dried it under the hot, summer sun. It worked fine again, after that.
Flasks are not nearly as moisture resistant as the original powder can.
Anyway, it was a funny incident and no one was hurt --- except my pride.
But I digress.
Multiple ignitions are not common, I believe. However, they are relatively uncommon because shooters take steps to avoid them: tight balls, good nipples, caps that fit well, etc.

 

[ValleyForge]

Well, we sure cleared up his confusion....

I haven't used a wad with my 1858 New Army (though I do with my 18th c.flintlock repro). Haven't had a smidge of problem, though with all the crisco I get on me, I could get French Fried on a hot day. What the hell, it's fall now...

 

[gordy]

I've not had a chainfire up to this point,and hope to avoid such an experience.I would have to agree with others here,that it's more likely that most chainfires are sparked at the nipple end of the cylinder.One other factor that can contribute to a cross fire at the nipples is the powder specks that are expelled from the open nipple when the ball is seated.The powder or dust that is expelled woulbe smaller than the 4ffff pan powder used by many on this Forum.If You don't blow/wipe this residue off the back of the cylinder prior to caping ,the flange of the cap will actually go over and retain it under the cap skirt,Also as more shots are fired and it's not wiped clean,theres a good chance it could ignite and travel under the cap skirt and iqnite that chamber.As for flame crossing over the face of the cylinder,I would not think it would travel down beside a proper sized ball.Even in revolvers that have been shot for years,cylinder wear would be greatest at the mouth of the chambers,funnel shaped.As long as Your getting a lead ring when loading the ball,this would wedge the ball even tighter as it's pushed further into the chamber.I have read that some really heavyly used and poorly maintained revplvers actually rusted holes between the chamber walls and this of corse triggered the powder in the neighboring chamber.Regarding the difference in accuracy between a ball 1/16" from the forceing cone or 3/8th", wouldn't seem to me, to make a great deal of difference as long as the preasure on the powder is even and enough.I thik You'd need a mechanical rest and a chronograph to note any change between this factor. :imo: :: eace:

 

[rockytopp]

I also have a new model army, stainless. I can't say how many pounds of powder that has went through it. I have never had a chain fire. I load 25 to 30 grains of pyro and shoot conical's. normaly I can just get the lead to clear the top of cyl. normaly I load both cyl. (spare) I clean the top of the crack around the top of the lead and if I am going to shoot right away I do not lub over the top. there is no way a spark can get past the lead, and not enough room over the lead to do any burning if it was left, as long as the bullet is to the top of cyl. If I am going to leave it loaded for any time I put some bees wax over the end of the lead ,,( moister) and leave it in my possible's bag for days and or weeks. I wrap the cyl in a paper towel, put it in a zip lock bag. this will keep for an indefinate period. Been doing this since back in the fiftys with all my shoot more than once pistols. If a long time passes then when I dig out the cyl. I take a small tip cleaner I carry from a cutting torch cleaner kit and run it into the nipple to clear any stuck powder or crust and then cap, and let her smoke. The chain fire comes from a cap that blows off from shock of fireing. If you look after you shoot and see a cap gone put a new cap on....... pinch it or egg it what ever it takes to keep it there, I have taken the nipple and very carfuly peened the end so as to enlarge it, then size the nipple hole back to original size, this way the cap will spread just a tiny bit and as you pinch the cap it acts as a bottle cap does on a bottle, an old timer showed me this in the late forties. he was a gun builder and help me get started. Hope this helps some one.. love this forum, best site ever. I have many smoke poles and wish I had all the ones I have made and sold but one can't keep them all. got a safe full now. Doing this to nipples comes from the old hopkins allen under hammer rifles, never did cotten to them critters, caps fell off just when you needed them... :m2c: