Revolver conicals

[Scota@4570]

I reamed my 1858 chambers to 0.452". It shoots much better with balls. 2" at 25 yards or so. Conicals? Better still? What size? I was considering having Accurate Molds make me a mold to the specs in the attached picture. Any comments on the dimensions or the idea in general?

 

[rodwha]

My NMA has a ~1:16” twist and does equally well with my 2 designs as it does with a ball.

I would bring that top driving band down to .453-4”. There’s no need to shave lead when it has a friction fit. One fellow even feels the same diameter is all that’s necessary but I figure it best to be a little bigger in case one were to use a bit of alloy. I also have mine chamfered and want to do the same with my ROA.

I’d also lengthen the base to something like double. Mine have a short base like that and they can easily be canted. My modified version will lengthen that to make it a little more secure.

 

[wb78963]

or look at Eras Gone period correct bullets.

 

[rodwha]

If he has a Pietta I’d think he’d have to modify the loading window as I did, even with my extremely short (.400”) WFN bullets. The one he shows is much more round and may just work as is, maybe. Not to mention the ram will destroy the end. It kisses mine with an odd imprint and so once I’ve done modifying my design I’ll use epoxy and an additional ram to form the nose to it.

 

[M. De Land]

If he has a Pietta I’d think he’d have to modify the loading window as I did, even with my extremely short (.400”) WFN bullets. The one he shows is much more round and may just work as is, maybe. Not to mention the ram will destroy the end. It kisses mine with an odd imprint and so once I’ve done modifying my design I’ll use epoxy and an additional ram to form the nose to it.

I just take the rams out of all my revolvers , put them in the lathe and cut a hemisphere in the end. This causes them to seat a ball or bullet well and in line although it will round the top edge of a bullet nose meplat a bit when seating them .

 

[M. De Land]

I just take the rams out of all my revolvers , put them in the lathe and cut a hemisphere in the end. This causes them to seat a ball or bullet well and in line although it will round the top edge of a bullet nose meplat a bit when seating them .

 

[Siringo]

My 1860 cylinder's are reamed to 0.4525". The mouths are slightly chamfered. They swage the projectile versus shaving lead. Just this week I used 35 grains by volume of 777 as a test. Never tried this stuff before as I only used BP. I have a Lee conical mold for the Ruger Old Army so I shot some of those along with plain round balls. Benched at 25 yards the conical group measures at least 6". Yet an offhand group at 7 yards measures 1". Since the shots were equally dispersed at 25 yards I am thinking there is a stability issue. Any thoughts on this?

The round balls shot at 25 yards grouped nicely at 2 inches. This experience mirrors what BP fffg does. The conicals are more tedious to load making sure they enter the chamber straight versus the round ball. So my vote goes to the round ball.

 

[wb78963]

Plus 1 for Siringo.
I tried two different .451" bullets in my Pietta Marshal. One was a 160 grain RNFP from a lee mould the other was a 130 grain hollow base bullet called the Barnstormer..
Both bullets work quite well in those brass case thingies (we don;t talk about) but when swaged into the percussion cylinder were way too tight. Fortunately the charge was only 15 grains of FFFg black powder.
Shooting them out was an experience. Had I used the usual 20 grains it might have been a severe strain on the gun and the gunner.
Balls is the safe way to go. at least for me.
Man ought to do what they think best.
Bunk

 

[rodwha]

I’ve shot hundreds of 170 and 195 grn bullets with 30 grns (weighs ~33 grns) of 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7. These aren’t anywhere near max loads (most accurate starting at 25 grns) as my 195 grn bullet is the length of a ball. Having found my NMA and ROAs more accurate loads I intend to fill the excess with lead to within 1/8” from the face.

Kaido has been selling a 240 grn version for reproductions and they kill hogs with them.

The bullet on the left is my 195 grn bullet followed by Kaido’s 240 and 255 grn bullets, and on the right is my 285 grn bullet I made for Ruger only shooting with that much mass and those long driving bands.

I’ve only read of one instance where a reproduction revolver (or original for that matter) received too much stress and had an issue. Someone loaded my 285 grn bullet in an ASM Walker with 52 grns of P and that chamber wall was removed. Anyone know of any other(s)?

 

[hawkeye2]

Siringo, a 1" group at 7 yards should equate to a 3.6" group at 25 yards so it does sound like a stability problem. Are you using the Lee cap & ball revolver mold for the Ruger? I bought one of those years ago to use in our modified revolvers which require a .457" round ball. For those not familiar with this mold it has stepped driving bands with the bottom one the smallest that should, in theory, allow it to be loaded straight in the chamber. A bench test showed the bullet group was at least twice the round ball group so the mold went into storage and I have never looked back.

 

[M. De Land]

I’ve shot hundreds of 170 and 195 grn bullets with 30 grns (weighs ~33 grns) of 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7. These aren’t anywhere near max loads (most accurate starting at 25 grns) as my 195 grn bullet is the length of a ball. Having found my NMA and ROAs more accurate loads I intend to fill the excess with lead to within 1/8” from the face.

Kaido has been selling a 240 grn version for reproductions and they kill hogs with them.

View attachment 53107

The bullet on the left is my 195 grn bullet followed by Kaido’s 240 and 255 grn bullets, and on the right is my 285 grn bullet I made for Ruger only shooting with that much mass and those long driving bands.

I’ve only read of one instance where a reproduction revolver (or original for that matter) received too much stress and had an issue. Someone loaded my 285 grn bullet in an ASM Walker with 52 grns of P and that chamber wall was removed. Anyone know of any other(s)?

I sure like to read about your guys experiments with conicals as it is both interesting and educational but for percussion gun shooting I prefer the balls as that is actually what they were designed to shoot with conical bullets being adapted later on. I see them as an evolutionary transition to cartridge guns.

 

[rodwha]

I sure like to read about your guys experiments with conicals as it is both interesting and educational but for percussion gun shooting I prefer the balls as that is actually what they were designed to shoot with conical bullets being adapted later on. I see them as an evolutionary transition to cartridge guns.

Hmmmm, the Walker came with a Prichet mold, no? Is Prichet the right term? The cutouts were elongated in so many of the cap n ball pistols it seems. And the military liked paper cartridges. I think I’d have to respectfully disagree.

What I’m a bit curious about is despite the paper cartridges during the war we still read of people preferring a ball for its effectiveness. So I assume they had a mold for balls as well and possibly loaded up with those and used the cartridges for fast reloads if possible. The conicals then were just poor manstoppers it would seem.

 

[rodwha]

Siringo, a 1" group at 7 yards should equate to a 3.6" group at 25 yards so it does sound like a stability problem. Are you using the Lee cap & ball revolver mold for the Ruger? I bought one of those years ago to use in our modified revolvers which require a .457" round ball. For those not familiar with this mold it has stepped driving bands with the bottom one the smallest that should, in theory, allow it to be loaded straight in the chamber. A bench test showed the bullet group was at least twice the round ball group so the mold went into storage and I have never looked back.

Do you happen to know the twist rate of that revolver? Clearly wasn’t a Ruger. My NMA and ROA both have a 1:16” twist and do equally well at 15 yds.

I’ve shot all but the the one on the far right through my ROA and the SWC backwards since it wouldn’t load as suggested and those all did quite well. And then there’s my 170 and 195 grn bullets too. My NMA only threw my bullets and a ball so it’s more limited, but seeing they all did the same thing I’m guessing it wouldn’t matter as long as it didn’t change the powder charge.

My shooting has always been at 15 yds and offhand, and the group sizes always ranged within 1/2” of each other (3.5-4” for the NMA and 3-3.5” for the ROA).

 

[M. De Land]

The Patteson Colt was the first practical, successful revolving hand gun that was mass produced and it was designed for shooting balls. All the subsequent Colt and other later manufacturers primarily designed their guns around ball shooting with conical adaptations as technology progressed.
The undersize chamber mouths in relation to the bore groove diameter, most original percussion revolvers had is a ball shooting design parameter in my opinion along with the use of rebated cylinders. Another is gain twist barrels which worked really well for the short bearing surface in ball shooting.

 

[nkbj]

Something often overlooked about reproduction percussion revolvers is that the bullet has the be engineered to work in the piece you're shooting. It doesn't work out like shooting a cartridge gun where you go's to the store and plunks down your money for a box of bullets.

When flat base bullets are being used, unless there is a means of maintaining perpendicularity of the bullet base to the axis of the bore during loading, and during it's exit from the chamber, and through it's passing into the barrel it won't give good results. What will happen is that misalignment will be present between the center of mass of the bullet and it's center of rotation and it will depart from the desired path. And, you will also get uneven jetting of gases around the base of the bullet as it leaves the muzzle similar (but in a more random manner) to what a poorly executed muzzle crown would do.

Chamber diameter being appreciably less than the rifling groove diameter accentuates the problem. As is so often noted in discussions, Pietta is really bad about having their chambers too small in diameter.

So, what's the solution? Figure out how to create adequate alignment during loading. The best I've come up with is re-engineering the gun. Using a bullet design that initially slips into the chamber to create some semblance of alignment works pretty good.

Something I'd like to try but just haven't been willing to spend the money on is a heavier bullet designed to slip in to assure alignment but also having a round backside to assure even jetting when leaving the muzzle. Something like this...

 

[M. De Land]

Good post and when one thinks about it the shape you have pictured is very similar to what a ball actually looks like when it leaves the muzzle . It is not round any more but more elliptical with the waist band cut at loading and bumped up from inertia as it hits the forcing cone and slides up bore.
I believe the reason balls were usually preferred to conicals in percussion guns (if time allowed) is because they were easier to make shoot accurately and killed just as well for man and horse which was the primary reason for their existence.
I believe the conical was more practical for self contained ammunition (paper cartridges), quicker to reload in battle and is the primary reason they were developed.

 

[nkbj]

If you happen to have the equipment for reloading cartridges it's not too hard cobble up some bullets for a Pietta .44 that will work pretty well. Having a bullet bearing length adequate to maintaining alignment is important, as is creating a bullet with two diameters, the back half or so slipping into your chambers before you shear off the front part like you do with a round ball. And another aspect to consider is that you're sacrificing powder space for lead volume while trying to get an undersized bullet fill the rifling; inadequate bullet mass can mean less expansion into the rifling. But creating the bullet designed for your piece is just the first step in creating an accurate loading.

Reckon you can tell by now that I love the hobby, tinkering around with this stuff. I'm not hunting with percussion revolvers any more, not sneaking up on camp meat like half a century ago. Now they're sneaking up on me.

 

[nkbj]

Good post and when one thinks about it the shape you have pictured is very similar to what a ball actually looks like when it leaves the muzzle . It is not round any more but more elliptical with the waist band cut at loading and bumped up from inertia as it hits the forcing cone and slides up bore.
I believe the reason balls were usually preferred to conicals in percussion guns (if time allowed) is because they were easier to make shoot accurately and killed just as well for man and horse which was the primary reason for their existence.
I believe the conical was more practical for self contained ammunition (paper cartridges), quicker to reload in battle and is the primary reason they were developed.

You got it, that's the thought behind having an either-ended ball.

I'm convinced that "conicals" were invented specifically to have a conical nose. Big difference between conicals and all the other designs of bullets. The power available to percussion revolvers was limited by not only the propellant but the fixed chamber length. In other words, there's that trade off between powder volume and lead volume. The military need was to auger through the outdoor clothing of the day more so than put holes close together in sheets of paper. To do that they created those heavier pointed bullets, conicals. The design wasn't good for nothing but getting through to the meat of the matter. For modern day hunters a heavier weight of lead gives better penetration but only to a degree (somewhere along the line you run out of powder space).

 

[RjSixgun]

why not use a Lee Round ball mold and drill out half the ball to make a ballet that has the same length as its diameter? one flat side and one round side, could be loaded as a wad cutter or as a round ball.

 

[nkbj]

From what I've seen (so far) the biggie is maintaining consistent alignment.
If your design does that then it has a good chance of good shooting.