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Restore A Flintlock Pistol

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Tumbler

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I wouldn't do a thing to that firearm. Restoration will only harm it, in my opinion. But, it is yours to do with as you wish.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You base your opinion on one picture. Shame on you.
 

Eddie2002

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Instead of calling the work you are doing on the pistol a restoration how about calling it a deep cleaning, might get the purists off your back LOL. I would leave it alone if it was mine but I have a tendency to fix it broke when I work on something like your pistol. What you are attempting is far beyond my skill set and a good man knows his limitations. Seems nowadays no matter what people do someone gets their panties in a bunch.
 

RB POWELL

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You have no idea what you are talking about. You base your opinion on one picture. Shame on you.
Not just based on a picture, as you state, but the details sou wrote about: apparently not very clearly. You know what "restoration" means? Fix the damned thing... I said you should do what you want with it, as it is yours. Get a grip!
 

Flintandsteel

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Ok, Tumbler obviously did not come here for advice, just to get someone to agree with him, to the point of getting personal. Not sure where we’re going from here, but it all seems very counterproductive.
Good luck with your endeavors!
 

Notchy Bob

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One of the terms that eluded me when I submitted my first post was conservation. I think this is actually what Tumbler is doing, and would be pretty much the equivalent of the "deep cleaning" suggested by Eddie2002. I think "stabilization" means simply arresting further deterioration. "Restoration" suggests changing an artifact's current condition back to a previous form, and repairing acquired defects. "Conservation" implies efforts to stabilize (e.g. stop active rust, if there is any) and clean, to "conserve" what is there, without necessarily changing the form of the artifact. It may just be a matter of semantics.

It sounds to me as if the OP is conserving the pistol rather than restoring it. He appears to be proceding carefully. I hope he won't abandon this thread altogether, and will show us some pictures of the results of his efforts.

Best regards,
Notchy Bob
 

Tumbler

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One of the terms that eluded me when I submitted my first post was conservation. I think this is actually what Tumbler is doing, and would be pretty much the equivalent of the "deep cleaning" suggested by Eddie2002. I think "stabilization" means simply arresting further deterioration. "Restoration" suggests changing an artifact's current condition back to a previous form, and repairing acquired defects. "Conservation" implies efforts to stabilize (e.g. stop active rust, if there is any) and clean, to "conserve" what is there, without necessarily changing the form of the artifact. It may just be a matter of semantics.

It sounds to me as if the OP is conserving the pistol rather than restoring it. He appears to be proceding carefully. I hope he won't abandon this thread altogether, and will show us some pictures of the results of his efforts.

Best regards,
Notchy Bob
Hi Tumbler,
I am assuming your gun is actually like the Manton pistols. Pictures would help to make sure. The lock bolt is the screw that goes through the stock horizontally behind the breech and threads into the lock plate. If your gun is really like the Mantons, you will have 1 lock bolt. It is possible that you have another for the front of the lock but those Mantons have just 1 bolt and they also have a hook or lug under the front of the lock plate that attaches to a screw head located within the lock mortice. That lug replaces the older design of having a second lock bolt in the front. Flintlocks typically had 2 bolts or one bolt and the hook so that the lock plate was positioned tightly against the barrel with no gaps. Gaps could allow powder flash to burn the wood under the lock so the plate had to fit tight against the barrel. The standing breech is part of the hook and tang style brech. It is the part that remains in the stock and receives the hook on the end of the barrel. Below are photos of standing breeches and hooks.




The standing breech pictured has a hump and sighting groove common during the 1740-1770s. The Mantons pistols are from the early 19th century and the breeches would be flat on top like the pistol below:


dave
my advice is as others...... leave it alone. By removing the patina, you’re removing it’s value .
But, carry on if you wish.
One of the terms that eluded me when I submitted my first post was conservation. I think this is actually what Tumbler is doing, and would be pretty much the equivalent of the "deep cleaning" suggested by Eddie2002. I think "stabilization" means simply arresting further deterioration. "Restoration" suggests changing an artifact's current condition back to a previous form, and repairing acquired defects. "Conservation" implies efforts to stabilize (e.g. stop active rust, if there is any) and clean, to "conserve" what is there, without necessarily changing the form of the artifact. It may just be a matter of semantics.

It sounds to me as if the OP is conserving the pistol rather than restoring it. He appears to be proceding carefully. I hope he won't abandon this thread altogether, and will show us some pictures of the results of his efforts.

Best regards,
Notchy Bob
Conservation is an accurate term. I have finished the outside metal work. All in all I’m happy with the results. It is cool that I can now read the serial number on the trigger guard. I live in CA and there are high winds. So the electric company has turned off power to prevent fires. It will be back on in 12 hours. Thank goodness for cell phones👍 I’ll post pictures of the bright work (or is that just a car term) when the power is back. I’ll be interested to know if you think I did a decent job.
 

Rudall

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One of the terms that eluded me when I submitted my first post was conservation. I think this is actually what Tumbler is doing, and would be pretty much the equivalent of the "deep cleaning" suggested by Eddie2002. I think "stabilization" means simply arresting further deterioration. "Restoration" suggests changing an artifact's current condition back to a previous form, and repairing acquired defects. "Conservation" implies efforts to stabilize (e.g. stop active rust, if there is any) and clean, to "conserve" what is there, without necessarily changing the form of the artifact. It may just be a matter of semantics.

It sounds to me as if the OP is conserving the pistol rather than restoring it. He appears to be proceding carefully. I hope he won't abandon this thread altogether, and will show us some pictures of the results of his efforts.

Best regards,
Notchy Bob
Sanity returns.
 
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Interesting thread. It seems Tumbler gets angry when he posts and does not like the answers to the point of PM ing me to tell me off. Oh well.
 

Rudall

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How is it that Feltwad is able to say that he restored a 250-year-old gun in this thread
without getting castigated?
No reflection on Feltwad, of course.
 
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I think it was clear in his post that he had managed a sympathetic restoration and the deed was done as opposed to stating your intent and clearly not wanting contrary opinions but agreement.
I have no grand issue either way as people can do exactly what they want to their own property and if the result pleases them that is really the most important thing.
 

Sam squanch

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My feeling is mr feltwad has YEARS of experience in restoration of these old guns. That he knows what to fix and what to leave alone. Mr tumbler came on here , in my opinion, to show US how it’s done in his neck of the woods. Restoring a car is not the same as restoring a collectible firearm. You can lose value quickly in one wrong move. I wish him luck in his restoration, but I have a feeling that it won’t turn out well.
 
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Grenadier1758

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Sometimes we get twisted up in our use of terms. Restoration gets used when conservation is the term that should be used.

It is apparent that the conservation of the firearm under discussion is the approach to the work done to keep the firearm in its present state and stabilized for the future.
 

Rudall

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Indeed, and from what Tumbler has written I gained the impression that that is exactly his Intention.

My point vis-à-vis Feltwad is that Tumbler has been criticised because he used the term ‘restoration’ whereas Feltwad was not, regardless of their assumed respective abilities and intentions.

I haven’t seen any snarkiness from Tumbler and cannot see how anyone could have interpreted his comments thus. As Notchy Bob wrote:
“He has sought advice, and he seems to have kept his temper and remained cordial.”
 

Tumbler

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Interesting thread. It seems Tumbler gets angry when he posts and does not like the answers to the point of PM ing me to tell me off. Oh well.
I don't recall PMing you. What did I say? It is not on my message board. There is one person that I have PM ed with and we have had a cordial exchange of ideas.
 

Tumbler

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Sometimes we get twisted up in our use of terms. Restoration gets used when conservation is the term that should be used.

It is apparent that the conservation of the firearm under discussion is the approach to the work done to keep the firearm in its present state and stabilized for the future.
Conservation is what I am attempting to do. I have a set of Joseph Manton pistols that needs nothing. The John Manton (although the picture doesn't really show it) was in bad shape. I didn't pay a lot for it and decided to conserve it. I figured someone would be interested in the project and that is why I posted it here...to get advice and to show the method I used to do the job. Not to show off or get confrontational with anyone. If you don't like what am doing ( leave it alone) I get it. Given what I have I started with I thought it is worth a shot. I also have a jewelry background and am using some of these techniques. If I loose the patina I blew it! I'll see how it goes. I'll show the final product, what I used to conserve it and I will welcome your thoughts. For me this is a learning experience and I decided to run it by the forum. I appreciate everyone's thoughts. It has been made abundantly clear from almost every one who has posted that I should leave the firearm alone. It may turn out you all will be right.
 

jonathan butcher

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As I often do I agree with Notchy Bob. He has politely pointed out the use of certain terms 'conservation vs restoration' which have clarified the OP's intentions.
Further, the OP presented a very interesting thread which I for one would like to see continue. I learn a great deal from many here and have since becoming a new member, I would hate to see him shouted down simply because of the opinions presented by others.
Finally, Oldbear63 presented us all with a thought that 'bears' some reflection. We Americans do appear to have lost the capacity for civility and that is the most disappointing of all. The ability to disagree without becoming disagreeable is a disappearing skill set.
Anyway I'll stop now before I say something which will make everyone mad at me! Good luck with your project Tumbler, I am very interested to see how it turns out!

Conservation is what I am attempting to do. I have a set of Joseph Manton pistols that needs nothing. The John Manton (although the picture doesn't really show it) was in bad shape. I didn't pay a lot for it and decided to conserve it. I figured someone would be interested in the project and that is why I posted it here...to get advice and to show the method I used to do the job. Not to show off or get confrontational with anyone. If you don't like what am doing ( leave it alone) I get it. Given what I have I started with I thought it is worth a shot. I also have a jewelry background and am using some of these techniques. If I loose the patina I blew it! I'll see how it goes. I'll show the final product, what I used to conserve it and I will welcome your thoughts. For me this is a learning experience and I decided to run it by the forum. I appreciate everyone's thoughts. It has been made abundantly clear from almost every one who has posted that I should leave the firearm alone. It may turn out you all will be right.
ed
 

LawrenceA

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While I to would hate to see the pistol wrecked, I do not think this will be the case.
Personally I wanna see how you go.
And how you do it.
Have done some conservation but not like this.

Especially can't wait to see the racing stripes! Candy apple red I hope 😁
 
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Tumbler

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While I to would hate to see the pistol wrecked, I do not think this will be the case.
Personally I wanna see how you go.
And how you do it.
Have done some conservation but not like this.

Especially can't wait to see the racing stripes! Candy apple red I hope 😁
It is a shame that we (as an entire culture) are losing our ability to be civil. Not just here, but all around us; though this thread is a microcosm of our general behavior....
I am continuing to work on the pistol. It is more challenging than I thought so I have to go slow. It's the most delicate project I have undertaken. I didn't expect this. So many of you warned me about this! I wouldn't wish this on any one! I'm happy with results so far but I have a ways to go. I'll keep you posted regarding the racing stripe color(s). :)
 
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