Repeating Flintlocks; Does anyone make them?

[Col. Batguano]

I've been rather smitten with the ingenuity of some of the 17th and 18th century gun makers, and some of their wares that seem to make it to the premium gun auction houses from time to time. That being in particular, the Lorenzoni lever action flint system, and the Collier revolving flint locks. It was said the Collier system was responsible for influencing Sam Colt for his self-indexing revolver system on one of his trips to London.

Now the Lorenzoni seems like it could be incredibly dangerous if the gas seal isn't perfectly tight, but it seems like if the seal could be perfected, it would make for a very fun, and interesting build. So does anyone make a lock / breech mechanism for either? Or, are we on our own to get it made here?

For those unfamiliar with either or both, here are a pair of Forgotten Weapons videos.
Lorenzoni;

Collier

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Have never seen such a kit offered myself.

I like the repeating flintlock where one loads ‘stacked’ multiple charges in the barrel and the lock assembly is on a track that you move from forward of the breech backwards for each shot.

Yes, each load must be sealed from the others and also be of the proper ‘length’ to align the powder with the touch hole, as there are multiple touch holes. One such ingenious design even has a self-priming frizzen pan.

I think a repeating flintlock like this is well within the realm of a ‘very good’ builder.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
As a maker, I would never make one of those. There would be too much liability in the inherently dangerous design. There is no way to perfect the sealing of the powder chamber if using black powder. Many Lorezoni's that survive have blown up powder chambers. There were also the Kalthof repeaters that worked very well when new but became bombs when the mechanism became the least bit worn. All early black powder self loading and repeating mechanisms failed after time and could not be perfected until the advent of the cheap metal cartridge and percussion ignition.

dave

 

[tenngun]

I’ve read it was blamed on poor metallurgy and by the eye machining technique. Better metal and more precise machineing may make the lever action design work. I don’t think even so, that I would want to lay my cheek on a magazine stock full of powder with fire inches away. It reminds me of something from Bugs Bunny.
But Jubul Sakett Cartier’s one with out killing himself

 

[dave_person]

I’ve read it was blamed on poor metallurgy and by the eye machining technique. Better metal and more precise machineing may make the lever action design work. I don’t think even so, that I would want to lay my cheek on a magazine stock full of powder with fire inches away. It reminds me of something from Bugs Bunny.
But Jubul Sakett Cartier’s one with out killing himself

Hi Tenngun,
I am skeptical that modern machining would solve the problems with the old designs. When I built a powder flask to supply with a cased set of pistols, I took apart an original flask from the period my gun represented to learn how they were constructed. The sheet of brass forming the valve or seal slides over a raised collar around the hole for the spout. The valve does not touch the top of the flask except at that collar. I quickly learned the reason for that. The extremely fine dust residue from black powder quickly binds the valve if it makes a lot of contact with the top. The raised collar limits that contact to just the area of the collar and prevents binding. The same problem would occur in a repeater using loose black powder. If the mechanism was machined extremely precisely, a tiny bit of that fine black powder dust would bind it. If the mechanism has a little slop in it to prevent binding, that fine dust will migrate to where it may become a danger.

dave

 

[Rifleman1776]

There have been some really imaginative attempts at developing repeating firearms in the early years. Several are (were years ago, at least) on display at the House on the Rock at Dodge, Wisconsin. I once had the honor of holding a CW rifle/musket that is not on display but kept in the vault at the College of the Ozarks in Point Lookout, Missouri. The rifle looks very much like it could be a modern bolt action shotgun. It is designed to hold multiple charges and projectiles. As each shot is fired the bolt is worked bringing up a fresh charge. A new cap is placed on the nipple and the gun fired again. At least, that is the theory. It never was accepted as an issue item. I believe it was called a "Smith". Do not know which side tried it.

 

[Col. Batguano]

It seems to me that an entirely new design would be warranted. There were breech loading loose BP guns of the early 18th century, such as the Hall and Scandinavian Kammerladders, and certainly the revolvers and harmonica guns worked as well (particularly so as cap locks) There were even revolving match lock guns.

The issue is the gas seal. All the above guns seal with the metal of the chamber area. As such, it is relatively rigid, and doesn't deform to create a gas seal the way a modern brass cartridge does. Modern large artillery (think battleship guns here) take loose powder bags, and the breech seals with a large interrupted screw mechanism. So it would seem to me that something along those lines would be needed to create a seal that would withstand high pressure chamber gas. Obviously that would be beyond the scope of this forum.

Still, they ARE interesting guns to examine, and probably to own. As for shooting, I'll let someone else risk their face with a multi-thousand dollar antique. I would ONLY think about it if it were single loaded, with nothing in the powder reservoir. But with so many other guns to shoot, there really isn't a good REASON to shoot one.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Looks like a assault weapon, ban it.

 

[tafile]

The one that would be interesting, would be the design Girandoni was working on when the Austrian Emperor assigned him to work solely on the air rifle.

 

[bang]

Saw a weapons Tech show about some repeater muzzleloaders. One used multiple loads and spaced priming ports. Needless to say they were responsible for numerous deaths and severe injuries.
One of the last and they still sell, the revolver carbine. It is capable of inflicting some damage. If held like a rifle it can inflict some pretty good hot gas jetting injury and should a chain fire occur you might come away a finger or two less or even a totally messed up hand.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

There have been some really imaginative attempts at developing repeating firearms in the early years. Several are (were years ago, at least) on display at the House on the Rock at Dodge, Wisconsin. I once had the honor of holding a CW rifle/musket that is not on display but kept in the vault at the College of the Ozarks in Point Lookout, Missouri. The rifle looks very much like it could be a modern bolt action shotgun. It is designed to hold multiple charges and projectiles. As each shot is fired the bolt is worked bringing up a fresh charge. A new cap is placed on the nipple and the gun fired again. At least, that is the theory. It never was accepted as an issue item. I believe it was called a "Smith". Do not know which side tried it.

This may surprise you, but all those rare guns in the House on the Rock display in Wisconsin are fakes made of plaster.

 

[Rifleman1776]

This may surprise you, but all those rare guns in the House on the Rock display in Wisconsin are fakes made of plaster.

It would surprise me. But, respectfully, I'm skeptical what you say is correct. Methinks it would be more work to sculpt and paint those things so realistically than to build a real one.

 

[mlshooter]

The Lorenzoni design actually has a fairly good gas seal because there is a slight taper to the plug, which assures an almost perfect gas-tight match because the plug and receiver body are lapped together when they are made. Then, a spring washer keeps just enough tension to hold the plug in place without binding the mechanism. Any gas that would escape at firing simply can't get around the drum and enter the powder magazine. The real danger with this design is that any ember in the chamber could ignite the magazine during the loading process, so firing chamber cleanliness is a must.

The main problem with them is black powder residue can bind the plug. If you look closely at the breech, there is a diamond-shaped cut-out where grease could be applied to keep the mechanism moving, and there is usually another cut-out on the bottom. This port could also be used to inspect the chamber for cleanliness (and embers) and powder could also be directly added there if one was skeptical of magazine loading.

I don't have any information on their cost in their day, but I would assume these were only for the very wealthy, as they took a long time to build and were only made (as far as I know) by the top-notch gun makers (in GB, Nock). I have seen pictures of some modern repro Lorenzoni pistols that were on sale in Germany, and they had that kind of 'Made in India' look to them. I'm sure that Peter Dyson or Blackley & Sons could knock one out - for a suitably high price...