Redistribution of Blackpowder

[Stumpkiller]

On August 6th I sent the following query to BATF.

To whom it may concern at BATF,

I am a moderator on a website that discusses muzzleloading firearms and a question came up regarding the purchase of small amounts (25 pounds) of black powder via a Hazardous Material purchase from a dealer who ships to homes and then the individual who received the shipment splitting the cost of the order, and the black powder, with other shooters who only want a few pounds. There seems to be a lot of confusion on whether this would be legal or not, and I thought it best to consult the experts directly.

Would such a transaction be illegal?

Thank you,

Today I received this reply.

Federal Law and Regulations, 27 CFR 555.141(b), exempts black powder purchases under 50 lbs if the black powder is used solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes in antique firearms or antique devices. Persons who engage in the business of dealing in explosives materials, such as black powder, would be required to have a Federal explosives license. For example, if you acquired the black powder for redistribution, or if the black powder is acquired for a non-exempt purpose, then an Federal explosives license or permit is required.

I was informed here after mentioning that I had requested info that I should have specified I would be collecting the cash ahead of time and thereby acting as an agent for the various final users. But the above is at least what I promised to convey once I had a response and by my understanding of "redistribution" seems pretty clear. Do with it as you will and interpret it as you see fit.

 

[necchi]

:hmm:
I know if and when a feller comes to camp and has powder that it usually disappears pretty quick and without alot of fanfare.
It can be gifted.
I can't sell you the powder, but if you enter this shoot for $15
(hands over novelty target for the fee) you will recieve this # of powder as a gift.

 

[tg]

One time when the box of powder was taken to the shoot loaction everyone was given a paper confirming what they had paid for and then after the shoot well low and behold a box of BP was on the table and folks just picked out what was on their list with no exchange of money or words, I think the guy who actualy bought it had left before the divvy began, I think disgression is the key to making a joint purchase.I have seen this go on for nearly 40 years and folks just do not yak and jabber a lot about it

 

[roundball]

I sent a similar Email back in 2008, BATF replies are in blue text...their answer to Example #2 explains it.
================================================

To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 6:12 PM
Subject: Clarification of "selling" the occasional can of black powder to a fellow hunter if he's run out

I’ve read a lot on the ATF website over the years trying to be certain that I operate within the law, and for example have learned that as an individual I can buy/keep up to 50lbs black powder for recreational purposes like my weekend shooting and hunting, without having to have a permit or license”¦the regs in general seem to make a distinction between recreational use and business use, like dealers, retailers, etc. And several of us were discussing item #47 which states to the effect that it’s unlawful to sell black powder to someone without a permit or license”¦which has lead to these questions as we want to be sure we aren’t breaking the law.

Example #1
From time to time over the years there’s always the occasion where a fellow Flintlock shooter will show up at the range and realize he’s forgotten his powder, left it back at the house, etc”¦and someone will usually have an extra can in their shooting box and let the guy have it at whatever the cost was.
ANSWER
Yes ”“ whenever black powder is sold the distributor must have a license to deal in explosives as required by 27 CFR 555.41 ”“ 43.

Example #2
With all the shipping and handling fees, plus the HazMat fees, by far one of the least expensive ways to buy black powder is to buy it by the 25lb case. (25 1Lb cans) And when somebody will be needing to order some more black powder, but not wanting the whole 25 lbs in a case, its not uncommon for 2-3 guys to agree to use all 25 cans but only one guy places the order of course, then they simply spilt up the cost according to however many 1 lb cans each guy wanted.
ANSWER
I would not interpret this as selling because there is a prior arrangement to split the order once received and one person is just ordering it for convenience purposes. If an individual gets a portion of the order and then turns around and sells it to another individual then they would need a dealers license.

In our opinion, those are not examples of somebody “selling black powder without a license” as I’m sure that the ATF reg was established for”¦they are not examples of somebody actually in business trying to seek out buyer to sell black powder to”¦not advertising to try and sell powder, etc”¦and of course in these examples no profit is involved”¦its just a couple of guys splitting a case of powder to get the most economical price, or helping a fellow shooter who forgot and left his powder home 50 miles away”¦they are just spontaneous circumstances that occasionally just come up.

We appreciate it very much if you could explain / clarify item #47...that it does or does not apply to these incidental exchanges between a couple of fellow shooters from time to time over the years.

 

[tg]

It would seem that if one is cautious and keeps records of ewho has paid for what in the initial order that after being split out there should be no problem, I would still advise against taking out an add in the local paper staing where and when the deal was going down.

 

[Zonie]

To all:

The answer for roundball's theoretical question #2 is what I expected it to be.

The entire issue depends on when the money is collected. .

If the agreement between several people to buy some black powder and the powder is payed for before the order is placed the guy collecting the money and making the order is the agent for the group.
He/she is NOT selling the powder. He/she is only ordering the powder and giving it to the others when it arrives, therefore, this is not a sale, and no license is required.

The way Stumpkiller worded his question to BATF, the individual ordered and paid for the powder on his own. This is the same as a store owner buying 25 Barbie Dolls.
If either of them sells their powder or Barbie Dolls they are selling the item so in the case of the black powder a Federal license is required. In the case of the Barbie Dolls there ought to be a Federal license required but their isn't. :grin: :rotf:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you ask the wrong question, you will get a wrong answer. :shocked2: :nono: The original disagreement was never about "redistribution". :shocked2: :thumbsup: Somebody's Ego got involved here.

Instead, it was about whether ONE person could take delivery of a case- or two- of BP on behalf of a group of shooters who placed the combined order?

The answer to that question is an unqualified, "YES". Roundball's answer has it right. :shocked2: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

Further thoughts about this "agent" idea.

Lets say someone was to decide to act as an agent to order some black powder for some of his friends. They then gave him $15.00/pound up front, BEFORE the order was made.

When he called in the order he finds that the total price is going to be $17/pound so he digs out his charge card and pays the $15/pound plus an additional $2.00/pound to make it come out right.

When his friends come over to pick up their powder he says, "Oh by the way, that powder actually cost me $17/pound so you guys owe me $2.00 per pound."

If he does that, the legal nit-pickers would consider that to be SELLING the powder for $2.00/pound. That requires the Fed. license.

How to head this off before the nit pickers can get involved?

Have your friends give you MORE than the amount you think the powder will actually cost.
When your friends pick up the powder give them the difference between what they gave you and the actual cost.
That is not selling. That is merely giving them back the un-needed money they gave their agent up front.

 

[lonehunter]

Or charge them $15 to park, or charge them to enjoy your company, or shake your hand, Then GIVE them a can of powder as they leave.
More than one way to skin a cat. :wink:

 

[Rifleman1776]

post deleted.

 

Or charge them $15 to park, or charge them to enjoy your company, or shake your hand, Then GIVE them a can of powder as they leave.
More than one way to skin a cat. :wink:

You guys are on to something.

I give you money to shake your hand and you give me powder for free?

I give you money to shake your hand and you give me a car for free. Now I can put cost of vehicle $0 when I go to register it, keeping the cost of the registration very low.

I give you money to shake your hand and you give me drugs for free. That way, you cannot be charged with "selling" drugs.

I enter your store and give you money to shake your hand and you give me your merchandise for free. That way you don't have to collect and pay the sales tax.

This is so ingenious, the law will never see through it. :thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

So a hand shake's a streach,,,big deal, why don't you make a list.

"Gifting" a "Premium" or "DoorPrize" is completelty normal in all manner of non-profit. It's been "Bait" too get people in the door for a long long time.

If I join the,
NRA,
AARP,
Pheasants Forever,
Ducks Unlimited,
ect,,,
I'll recieve "free" (fill in the blank)

I won't name the club, but when you win an event and are called up at the closing meeting, you pick a prize from huge pile on a blanket.
One year there was #'s of powder,,My minor son won an event and chose a pound,,then they called up all the youth shooters and handed each a box of ball and a pound of powder.
Could the Fed's get picky about that!!?> Sure, they gave powder too minors,,
Each child was with an Adult, disscretion won the day. We paid a "Camp Fee",, money changed hands, it's a non-profit entity,,
Another non-profit ran a specific shoot at a different vous` 2$ per target the winner of several events won a pound of powder as well as other items of significant value,,money changed hands,,
The 1st club has two retired LEO as members, at the other the DNR was in camp,,
No problem,, nobody was "selling" powder.

 

[paulvallandigham]

My brother always asks for more money than the powder will cost per pound. He even calls the Distributor for their latest price, when he begins taking orders, and then rounds the amount upwards. He does this often enough that he can cut this pretty close.

I can't see a Federal Prosecutor wanting to antagonize the voters in his district prosecuting a guy because he picks up the additional cost of the powder when he delivers a prior order to another shooter, but there are so many Gun-haters, among ambitious Politicians out there, I suppose its a possibility. All the restrictions on Gun owners are currently on "life support" until the Supreme Court begins sorting out which ones are Reasonable Restrictions, and which aren't.

Would you like to be the Attorney General facing the Supreme Court arguing that the conviction for a felony offense should be sustained for this kind of minor "violation"? One that is Not even defined by Congress in the statute? And, one that runs contrary to the law of Agency that has existed for hundreds of Years at Common Law?

My gun club used to buy extra powder( to fill out a case order) and then make it available as match prizes. If someone wanted to swap the prize with someone else, for another prize or cash, or a little of both, it was not the club's business.

The critical point is the question, "Are both parties to this powder transfer legally allowed to own and possess the powder"? If they are, then you find Government trying to convict someone of a felony to do what? Enforce their rules and regulations about dealers having licenses? Is that what rules and regulations are all about? Or are they intended to prevent people who are not legally allowed to have certain substances sold in Interstate Commerce from obtaining them?