Real Hawken or not?

[warbike39]

Haha great advice thanks. As I said before I've never cleaned polished or touched anything. I did check to make sure it wasn't loaded. I would never shoot it but after I get it truly looked at and appraised I would lime to let a handful of real Hawken guys examine it in person, photograph it as they please yes

Bob, You’re right. I missed that pic. That does look like a blowing horn.
I can’t tell from the photos if the measure is metal or not. Looked like black horn to me, but then I have a Colt pistol flask in my collection that’s oxidized to about the same color too. About DiMarco’s comment: You might try Ted Cash for a brass box like that one. It also looks very much like a compass I have that belonged to my grandfather. Round, heavy brass, about 3 inches in diameter.

and then possibly find a new owner that will truly appreciate it and give it a good home.
D I will continue to add a few more pics.

Yes the small conical powder measuring device is made of metal and appears to be partially filled with wax? So that the proper measurement could be attained.

 

[warbike39]

Did anyone notice the small nail and small wood repair that looks pretty ancient. Looks like the wood chipped and someone many years ago did a decent repair on it.
Dave

 

[Relic shooter]

I grew up & started collecting in New Mexico, t he wood & metal components on your rifle are in exceptional condition for an untouched barn find. The wood on firearms of that era than I've run across from that part of the country typically suffer splitting & shrinkage due to the dry heat.
The nose cap on your rifle appears to be pored pewter.
Unfortunately I'm only familiar with the conventional bigger bore western Hawken rifles I've had opportunity to examine.

 

[warbike39]

I grew up & started collecting in New Mexico, t he wood & metal components on your rifle are in exceptional condition for an untouched barn find. The wood on firearms of that era than I've run across from that part of the country typically suffer splitting & shrinkage due to the dry heat.
The nose cap on your rifle appears to be pored pewter.
Unfortunately I'm only familiar with the conventional bigger bore western Hawken rifles I've had opportunity to examine.

I think the initials carved on the nose piece and possibly on the small powder horn are very interesting also.
This gun was wrapped super well in old clothes and an old quilt and buried in a foot of blown in rock wool since at least 1965 in a dry old attic but miraculously didn't dry to the point of splitting

 

[Kabulrocks]

Oops on my comment about the drum and nipple. I built a copy of a St. Louis Squirrel rifle in 2006, from photos of it for sale on Gunbroker (?). It was a drum and nipple.

That’s one reason that this thread is interesting to me.... a .40 caliber Hawken-inspired squirrel rifle is a future build project for me.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@warbike39

Thanks for the additional pictures, and for confirming the material from which the powder measure was made.

From the 5th and 6th photos in post #81, the lead balls look to be a little over 5/16". Five-sixteenths of an inch would calculate to 0.3125", so the balls would be a little larger than that. I understood your mould has the number 95 on it. I got out my chart, and a 95 gauge ball (that is, 95 balls to the pound of lead) would measure 0.366". I would be very interested in the actual bore diameter of the rifle, as it seems very likely that your lead balls, mould, and rifle are old companions. Most round ball shooters now like to use a ball 0.010" under bore diameter, but it is generally believed that the old-timers used slightly smaller balls relative to bore size. The difference between bore size and ball size is described as "windage." It is pretty rare to find an old rifle that still has its original mould with it. If you can get accurate measurements of the ball diameter and rifle bore size, we can calculate the windage and get a better understanding of how the old-timers loaded and shot this rifle. It would be great if we could get an accurate measure of the amount of powder thrown by that old charger, too. And for the truly obsessive, a measurement of the patch thickness.

A lot of us carry so much with us for shooting. That little powder horn with the attached charger, the brass container with tallow, patches, and balls, and a tin of caps could all be carried in a coat pocket for a day afield. There is a lot to be learned from this collection!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[warbike39]

@warbike39

Thanks for the additional pictures, and for confirming the material from which the powder measure was made.

From the 5th and 6th photos in post #81, the lead balls look to be a little over 5/16". Five-sixteenths of an inch would calculate to 0.3125", so the balls would be a little larger than that. I understood your mould has the number 95 on it. I got out my chart, and a 95 gauge ball (that is, 95 balls to the pound of lead) would measure 0.366". I would be very interested in the actual bore diameter of the rifle, as it seems very likely that your lead balls, mould, and rifle are old companions. Most round ball shooters now like to use a ball 0.010" under bore diameter, but it is generally believed that the old-timers used slightly smaller balls relative to bore size. The difference between bore size and ball size is described as "windage." It is pretty rare to find an old rifle that still has its original mould with it. If you can get accurate measurements of the ball diameter and rifle bore size, we can calculate the windage and get a better understanding of how the old-timers loaded and shot this rifle. It would be great if we could get an accurate measure of the amount of powder thrown by that old charger, too. And for the truly obsessive, a measurement of the patch thickness.

A lot of us carry so much with us for shooting. That little powder horn with the attached charger, the brass container with tallow, patches, and balls, and a tin of caps could all be carried in a coat pocket for a day afield. There is a lot to be learned from this collection!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I have learned so much about muzzleloading and the Hawken rifles themselves in the past few days it has been incredible. I will study on exactly how to take a wax measurement of the bore. I will have some calipers in the next couple days and I will also measure volume of powder dispenser and measure the ball size that the plier mold was made for and see what I can measure on the patches.
Dave

 

[MosesWhite]

Here’s pictures of a fancier ”for local trade Hawken” with a similar toe plate, lock panel and butt plate as the OP’s rifle.View attachment 209476 View attachment 209478 View attachment 209475

The difference between this one and yours is that yours is real . I believe this one is Mr. Yearout's old rifle . This one for sure new taken apart and examined real closely.

 

[scottmc71]

Being somewhat new to this community of blackpowder. I've been following this thread and would like to see the outcome. To me it's truly amazing how all those items survived. That man took the time to preserve one of his prized possessions, truly remarkable to me.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I am beginning to believe that @warbike39's rifle is an authentic S. Hawken "Squirrel Rifle". I will be getting some input from some very knowledgeable Hawken experts. Recently we came across a local rifle that has all the architectural features of an S. Hawken or John Gemmer Squirrel rifle but none of the markings. Yes, it looks similar to warbike's rifle. The experts know that the rifle is authentic to the period, but only attributable to the Hawken Shop due to the similarities of the construction.

 

[Albert53]

I found this rifle many many years ago hidden in the attic of an old home I bought in New Mexico. I am trying to confirm if it is a real Samuel Hawken gun. It appears to be either a .38 or .40 caliber. I have kept it wrapped up all these years exactly as I found it. Hidden with it were two old powder horns (one old and small and one larger and unfinished) also a small brass tin containing round lead balls, a small pliers like mold device for making bullets and a spoon for pouring lead with a corn cob handle.
Thanks for any help.
Dave

I looked in my set of James D Gorden books this morning and the trigger guard and pewter nose cap appear to be identical to one of the Midwestern style of rifles fir local trade , the flash guard behind the hammer kinda appears to be added and possibly made of sheet metal.

 

[Herb]

Oops on my comment about the drum and nipple. I built a copy of a St. Louis Squirrel rifle in 2006, from photos of it for sale on Gunbroker (?). It was a drum and nipple.

 

[Herb]

 

[Herb]

This was a Sam Hawken rifle.

 

[Elfirgnol]

The math works out to .366 bore.

 

[warbike39]

I looked in my set of James D Gorden books this morning and the trigger guard and pewter nose cap appear to be identical to one of the Midwestern style of rifles fir local trade , the flash guard behind the hammer kinda appears to be added and possibly made of sheet metal.

I am not a gun builder or specialist but the flash guard does appear added and it is made of a thin sheet metal.
D.

 

[smoothshooter]

I found this rifle many many years ago hidden in the attic of an old home I bought in New Mexico. I am trying to confirm if it is a real Samuel Hawken gun. It appears to be either a .38 or .40 caliber. I have kept it wrapped up all these years exactly as I found it. Hidden with it were two old powder horns (one old and small and one larger and unfinished) also a small brass tin containing round lead balls, a small pliers like mold device for making bullets and a spoon for pouring lead with a corn cob handle.
Thanks for any help.
Dave

About what caliber is it?

 

[smoothshooter]

Maybe it's something put together back in the day around an available Hawken barrel?

That would be my guess unless someone stamped the Hawken name on the barrel to mislead someone many years ago.

 

[warbike39]

That would be my guess unless someone stamped the Hawken name on the barrel to mislead someone many years ago.

I'm pretty much sure after owning it for almost 30 years and chatting with 400 people about it that it is an original Samuel Hawken, just of a smaller caliber and less known.
D.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I visited with Bob Browner, one of the premier makers of authentic Hawken rifles. We looked ar @warbike39's pictures and compared the pictures to known S. Hawken squirrel rifles. The butt plate, trigger guard, cheek piece profile, the carving around the lock, the escutcheon plate for the lock bolt, stamping, and stock architecture are comparable to the known S. Hawken squirrel rifles. The percussion drum and nipple are rare, but not unknown. Most had the semi patent breech with the snailed nipple seat. Of course it would require a hands-on physical inspection to fully authenticate the rifle. One of the viewers was as interested in the contents of the trading post as much as the rifle. Any pictures of the closed up trading post?

The 95 gauge mold should cast a 0.366" diameter ball that would be suitable for a 38 caliber rifle especially since they loaded a much looser patch and ball combination than we do.