RB Diameter for Bare Ball Loads in a 20ga. SB?

[Flint62Smoothie]

Me thinks too many of you are not using enough powder for your smoothie loads, never mind just your bare ball loads! FWIW a few sharp old-timers at my range use nothing less than full power military-type loads in their smoothies ... and believe me, you’d not want to shoot against them. And for those loads, go down to 2Fg or even 1Fg for 100-grn+ loads like used in my 75-cal 60” barreled club butt.

Some of it is the load & firelock and much of it is the shooter of course, but if I can’t shoot a ragged 3-hole group benched and 2” or less group whilst fired offhand at 25-yards ... then I’ll work on tuning the load/arm again. But admittedly I do shoot offhand 2-3 times per week, year ‘round.

 

[tenngun]

Duelist 1954 on you tube gotresults that match what yoursaying. Increased powder charges helped on bare ball loads while lesser charges helped on patched ball.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Duelist 1954 on you tube gotresults that match what yoursaying. Increased powder charges helped on bare ball loads while lesser charges helped on patched ball.

We’re finding increased powdah charges helps the patched loads (patch or paper) and wadded (tow or wool lubed buttons) too.

I tested my 65-cal 54” barreled Fusil de Boucanier with charges from 50-grains to 140-grains and had 3 nodes of the most accurate groups. The results were not linear as expected, for 3-shot (benched) groups w/ 2 to 3 shots all touching, were at 55, 80 & 120-grains.

Reported elsewhere, but my big 75-cal of 60” barrel has been showing phenomenal accuracy with heavy (80-grains+) of 1Fg powdah. However that is still in development, as those were early French type paper cartridge loads. Sometimes it makes me believe that what they were doing ... and we are not (for the most part) ... was indeed the superior way.

 

[Cruzatte]

In regards to a reference of lower than optimum powder charges, I noticed that Duelist1954's shoulder moved backwards quite a bit with his powerful 110 gr 2fg charges. I have on occasion dumped near that much powder down the barrel, and the resultant recoil negated any possible improvement in accuracy. Missed the target by a mile, as one might say.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Those guys I referred to, who have participated in the F&I War tacticals at the lake George, NY area for 30+ years, routinely shoot 120+ grain loads.

Again my experiences are with loooooong barrels, but using the 1Fg powder, I would state that the recoil is 1/2 to 2/3rds that of a comparable 2Fg powdah load. But ... 1Fg might not be suitable for 62-caliber smoothies & loads to around 80-grains.

 

[smo]

Flint , My smoothbore seems too group better with 70 grns fffg.

I’ve shot up too 110 grns of both Fg & ffg with a .626 ball , but my best groups were with the fffg.

I’m going too give it a whirl again however with the Fg & the ffg using a over shot card ,Olive Oil wad, .648 ball and another over shot card to hold the ball in place.

My bore mics .653

 

[tenngun]

I shot 80 inmyTFC because that was recommended, saw so many boys on here with60-65 charged I gave it a try, and found my groups lost a inch at 50 yards with 65 grains.

 

[Cruzatte]

Those guys I referred to, who have participated in the F&I War tacticals at the lake George, NY area for 30+ years, routinely shoot 120+ grain loads.

Yeah, and they're shooting blank loads, too. Let's see 'em try that with a ball load.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Yeah, and they're shooting blank loads, too. Let's see 'em try that with a ball load.

Uhhhhhhh ... yes, at those tacticals they are indeed ‘blank’ loads, but at the range for LIVE fire, they do shoot ‘real’ roundball (usually paper cartridges or bareball) loads of HEFTY powdah charges.

In fact, they are the ones who saw me shooting and advised that if I ‘added much more powdah’ that my groups would tighten up and they were right!

 

[Cruzatte]

OK....but what I don't get is how to compensate for the recoil. That throws me off every time. Now for a few specifics: My Caywood Wilson model 20 ga has a 41" barrel. The gun doesn't weigh but 6 lbs. If I keep the powder charges in the 60 gr/2¼ dr range I can shoot it all day. If I increase the charge past 70 gr/2½ dr the gun slaps my cheek like an insulted girl. If I used Duelist1954's loads, why I'd probably dislocate my shoulder, and maybe knock a tooth loose.

I wonder if there's something else at play here. And that something might be the weight of the gun, and the length of the barrel.

 

[tenngun]

Even in his YouTube video about it he calls some recoil ‘vicious’.
I’m a big ol boy and can absorb a hunk of recoil, but I don’t go out to have fun by getting beat up, I’ll take fun over pain thank you.
I have found that after theball exits the deer it doesn’t matter how much residue energy it has, deer Are just as dead.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Just from my experience, but when switching from heavy (100-grns+) loads of FFg to same or even heavier loads of Fg powdah, the recoil was significantly reduced, to the point where they were no longer a problem or concern to shoot. And for me, the accuracy improved, so it also surely helped the offhand shooting.

But note this likely works for me as my firelocks that I use Fg powdah in have looooonng barrels ... so it might not be a viable option to those shooting < 48” barrels.

As Cruzette points out, with some stock designs, you can reach a point where the heavier load becomes unpleasant to shoot!

 

[Cruzatte]

OK....so what I'm seeing here are several things:

• powder granulation
• barrel length
• possible weight of gun

This looks interesting and challenging, and gives me more incentive to get to work on that FDC on my work bench. (Coleraine 44" X 20 ga, C profile)

 

[smo]

My expierience with Fg is that it gives more of a push on the shoulder rather than more of a thump from ffg in 100 grns of Powder.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... gives me more incentive to get to work on that FDC on my work bench. (Coleraine 44" X 20 ga, C profile)

I too have a Fusil de Chasse ‘hunting gun’ made to the specific requirements and early French measurements (pieds & pouces) of the 1727 contract to Tulle. It uses a ~44.3” barrel or thereabouts ... I myself would not use 1Fg loads in it ... too short.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

To me, the real and ideal bareball load would be just that - ball & powdah. Even the historical records prove this! They would carry 2 size RBs, loading the smaller ball after the bore fouled up to the point where they couldn’t load and shoot their paper cartridge loads.

Yes, nowadays one indeed needs to be careful, for safety, and take care not to tip the muzzle end of the barrel down and/or to check the ball’s proper seating, to ensure it is on the powdah. With a good match between ball size to bore, fouled be that it is, they can also be VERY accurate.

That’s the way I like to do it! But if/when shooting with a bunch of people around, I will throw a lubed wool ‘cookie’ on top of the ball. Doesn’t do anything for me really, but might for them ... although I admit it ensures the ball stays seated. I’ve never had a problem in the ~12 years I’ve been doing BB loads that way, shootin’ up up to 8-pounds or more of powdah every year.

 

[tenngun]

Reading through this thread again did make me chuckle. I’ve played with different ball sizes over the years, like every one else here. I’m thinking though the ball sold in a trading post or the molds sold for the fusils came in a choice of one.

 

[bigted]

Indeed. I wonder what the expected FIELD accuracy was back when. It occur's to me that folks like myself that grew up with an old Winchester 22LR expect accuracy that may not be possible with vintage style loading a smoothy.

Do you guys think that in a world of MOA guns, that we get skewed with our expectations?

I for one am trying to lessen my 1 inch at 50 yds and attempt to reconsider what is needed or even possible for hunting accuracy.

Maybe a 3 or 4 inch 50 yard group for 3 or 4 shots is the goal to be sought. I know that I get discouraged with what I have achieved ( 3 inch flintlock 3 shot group at 45 yards ) when that very well could be close to what I should be looking for as a goal? This was with a patched .015 patch and a .595 inch ball and 80 grains Ol E 2Fg powder with mink oil lube.

Bare ball needs some more work on my part but threads like this help with inspiring hints and thoughts.

 

[Sparkitoff]

After reading this thread I went back to the range. I load 80 grains FFFg, cardboard wad (licked), shot and over card. Originally I had used 70 grains but got better accuracy at 80 grains so I stopped. After reading here I thought maybe I was missing something by not trying more powder. 90 grains was hardly a difference but the increased recoil was noticed (but not uncomfortable). 100 grains opened the group size and started to move the group to the left. 110 grains put the group left and strung vertically. These are 5-shot groups off the bench with as much consistency as possible. So for my gun, going over 90 grains with this particular wad and ball does not help anything. I am going to stick with the 80 grains. It is comfortable to shoot, very accurate and producing 1480 FPS (5-feet from muzzle). Every gun deserves some experimentation if you are going to get the most out of it.

 

[bigted]

Sparkitoff, when you say " licked" on your cardboard wad ... how thick and describe " licked" for me? Also is this cardboard wad the only thing between ball n powder?

Next ... by " shot " are you meaning shotgun shot or a ball?

What do you use for an over ball card?

Thanks. Just trying to get a handle on what works for others. One hole for 5 shots at 25 yards? Way better then anything I have tryed thus far period.