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Range report with 777, Pyrodex P and Goex fffg

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FishDFly

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"I take it you never lived in Alaska or Hawaii, Not a fan of the substitutes. They simply don’t perform in flint locks which is all"

Guess there is a shortage of flintlock shooters in Alaska and Hawaii.
 

toot

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will TRIPPLE 7, 777, go off / fire as a main charge in a ROCK LOCK? if so what granulation? and can it be used for a priming charge? just quercous.
 

Okie Hog

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What about pressures?
In 2007 The Rifleman magazine ran an article by Bryce M. Towsley. Mr. Towsley tested black powder and the black powder substitutes available then. The article gives the pressures and velocities of rounds fired from a 27 inch rifle barrel. 100 grains of 777 powder behind a 250 grain bullet in a sabot averaged 15,700 PSI. 150 grains and the same bullet/sabot combination averaged 18,800 psi. Those pressures are very close to pressures generated by Swiss FFG black powder.
 

Carbon 6

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The term " Black powder substitute" is a misnomer. Each powder has its own niche to fill, but none are an across the board replacement for the real stuff.
All through out the 19th century people tried to "improve" on black powder and the muzzleloader. By 1885 self-loading rifles, machineguns and smokeless powder had all been invented.
 

arcticap

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I have 777 3f needs cleaning after every shot. Im trying to find APP 3f it shoots clean and good groups. Use 2 guns a Lyman 50 cal great plains and 58 cal zouave
You can find new production American Pioneer powder at the online vendors listed in this thread.
--->>> American Pioneer Powder is Back in Business & Available
And it's also being sold by Graf's under the label "Shooter's World Multi-Purpose Black FFF Sulfurless Powder".


Not a fan of the substitutes. They simply don’t perform in flint locks which is all
I shoot. I was impressed by the velocities the OP got with 777. What about pressures?
I was surprised to learn that APP 3F will work in some flintlocks as the main charge with black powder only in the pan.
The videos in this thread show how well it worked in an India Brown Bess.--->>> Videos- Firing India Bess with American Pioneer 3F
 
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JohnnieT

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I was surprised to learn that APP 3F will work in some flintlocks as the main charge with black powder only in the pan.
The videos in this thread show how well it worked in an India Brown Bess
Wow! You mentioned substitute powders AND an India-made gun in the same post? You’re a brave man trying to anger the purists like that lol!

On topic, I have shot with both regular Goex FFg and several different brands of substitute. I haven’t recorded velocities, but Pyrodex, 777, and the Jim Shockey stuff definitely have a different “feel” to them when firing. If I don’t have regular BP available, then Pyrodex is preferred sub, just for convenience/ availability. I didn’t notice any negative issues with any of them, but my loads are fairly conservative and I try to lean my guns as soon as I can after shooting.
 
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ppg1949

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I don't try to make my guns into "Magnums", just reporting my results.

PastorB, It is my understanding that 777 should be loaded 10-15% less by volume than BP or Pryo. By loading the same volume of 777 as BP & Pryodex explains why you got those magnum velocities.
If anyone else is aware of this, then please jump in with your comments. Thanks
 

Billy Boy

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Went looking for some powder a few days ago, and all they had was 777 in what they call 3f granulation. Didnt really want it, but no options. Been a hard-core "Holy Black" guy since 1977, and was happy and saw no reason to change. But since all I could get was 777, went to the range and took along a chronograph, and was sure glad I did! Used a Pietta 1858 Army and an old, wore out (but very accurate!) Pietta 1851 Navy. Here are the results, from a rest at 25 yards, 6 shot group. Cleaned barrels between each cylinder. All shooting down with round balls, .375 and .454 respectively.

1851 Navy

Pyrodex P, 23 grains, 920 fps 2" group

Goex fffg, 23 gr. 900 fps 1.5", very consistent velocity, 17fps extreme spread.

777, 23 gr. 1120 fps, 1" group, great consistency! 29 fps e.s.

Shot a second group at 50 yards, 1.5" group, not kidding!

1858 Army

28 grain pyrodex P, velocity all over from 550 fps to 720 fps, but a great group of 1.25"

35 grain pyrodex P, 960 fps, 3" group.

35 grain Goex fffg, 920 fps, 2" group, with great consistency, e.s. 24 fps.

35 grain 777, 1150 fps, 1.5" group, with great consistency.

I don't try to make my guns into "Magnums", just reporting my results. Was very impressed with the 777 velocity, consistency and accuracy, and it cleaned far easier than either Goex or Pyrodex. I've been hesitant to use substitutes for years, but I'm going back to get some more 777! Will try in my rifles (not my flintlocks) next. Will post results when I do. Both the revolvers I used today are straight stock, and have had thousands of rounds through them.
 

rodwha

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I don't try to make my guns into "Magnums", just reporting my results.

PastorB, It is my understanding that 777 should be loaded 10-15% less by volume than BP or Pryo. By loading the same volume of 777 as BP & Pryodex explains why you got those magnum velocities.
If anyone else is aware of this, then please jump in with your comments. Thanks
I can assure you those velocities would be no slower had he used Olde Eynsford or Swiss, both real BP. The reduction was to hopefully mimic the neutered powders that are more common here. Come to find out it could require more than 15% as Mike Beliveaux found out in his testing.


The reduction has nothing to do with safety or pressures.
 

rodwha

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Many, many moons ago I used nothing but 3F Triple 7 as Swiss wasn’t available in San Antonio anywhere, and Olde E wasn’t invented. I needed a powder that wouldn’t leave my revolvers nothing more than large .38 Spls. But then the shortages came and BassPro didn’t have 3F for months and months and so I checked out Grafs and found that if I bought 3 lbs it negated the HazMat and taxes, I about broke even but without wasting gas and time.

But then came Olde E. Much cheaper but with the same performance, if not a little better. And what I have found is it behaves the same, and I compress my loads, not with gorilla strength but certainly quite “firmly” which is all Hodgdon said outside of loading cartridges. I saw nothing erratic as I’ve often read. I don’t have a means to check loads against each other but they printed in the same space as always (a little left and a little low) with an identical group size at 15 yds offhand. It may not be as consistent but it doesn’t seem to show itself enough to be a concern, though I need to work this out at the 25 yd range.

So I’d recommend picking up some Olde E if it’s available where you go, or just maybe you’ll find as I did that Grafs (or some other) is a good choice in the long run. It’s the real deal which you said you’ve always preferred and it’s cheaper to boot!
 

alfakilo

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I don't try to make my guns into "Magnums", just reporting my results.

PastorB, It is my understanding that 777 should be loaded 10-15% less by volume than BP or Pryo. By loading the same volume of 777 as BP & Pryodex explains why you got those magnum velocities.
If anyone else is aware of this, then please jump in with your comments. Thanks
That is my understanding as well. The point is that the 777 reduction is intended to produce the same velocity as BP or Pyrodex. By loading 777 to the same volume as BP/Pyrodex, we can expect a higher velocity. Someone with a better grasp of the technicalities can speak to how safe that is. For me, I load a reduced 777 quantity based on the operating manual BP recommendations.
 

Crow-Feather

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I have to admit that I am hesitant to try new stuff since Pyrodex has been associated with rusting or some such thing where you can't use chlorine or whatever to clean it. Velocity doesn't mean much but accuracy does. I wonder if increased pressure doesn't seal the bore better or sumthin like that.
 

rodwha

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That is my understanding as well. The point is that the 777 reduction is intended to produce the same velocity as BP or Pyrodex. By loading 777 to the same volume as BP/Pyrodex, we can expect a higher velocity. Someone with a better grasp of the technicalities can speak to how safe that is. For me, I load a reduced 777 quantity based on the operating manual BP recommendations.
Had to look at the container I have. Some things conflict with what I recall reading on their site. They’ve restructured their site to where I can’t seem to find anything they stated about reduction of powder or compression of loads.

What I recall is it was stated to be a volume for volume equivalent to BP, but that if one wanted the same velocity as “BP” you’d need to reduce by 15%. Nowhere had I seen a need to reduce a charge for safety concerns written.
 
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alfakilo

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I'm new to percussion guns but not new to shooting. I've always loaded regular pistol and rifle loads using middle range values. I've never had the inclination to load to the limits. I want to use the same thinking here but am confused by what appears to be conflicting info at times. I'm a recreational shooter and far more interested in safe practices than loading to the max.

Is there a safety issue with loading 777 to the maximum values in the manuals? Not an easy question since the Pietta and Uberti manuals list different numbers. Then there is the question of steel vs brass frame and how that enters into the discussion. Further compounding possible confusion is that this forum mixes discussion of BP rifles with cap and ball pistols...well meaning advice may fit one but not the other, and it isn't always clear what is what. It is good when folks are specific about what they are speaking about.
 

Carbon 6

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Velocity doesn't mean much but accuracy does. I wonder if increased pressure doesn't seal the bore better or sumthin like that.
Accuracy gains due to velocity increases are often a function of reduced time. Time of flight is a big factor.
 

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