Random thread about myths and gun show tales about percussion revolvers......

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 19, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
2,204
Location
Far Away Downs Queensland Australia.
Gander Mt printed that in their catalog back in the 90s , I remember seeing it back when you could actually buy a Rogers & Spencer repro from Euroarms from a Major retailer, it was all "The .44 Rogers and Spencer, one of the most accurate and prized revolvers of the Civil War. They were re-issued during the Phillipine Insurrection to stop fanatical Moro Tribesman in the 1890s"

Nowadays find me 2 people who even know what a Moro tribesman is, or the Phillipine Insurrection, but I think an ad writer at Gander just spit out some ad copy because few R&S were issued during the Civil War and I will safely assume none were used in the 1890s because they'd have been antiquated junk to soldiers at that point, and any nitrate cartridges in storage would have been 30+ years old. Not even that but try explaining to Soldiers and Officers that they're gonna carry this Civil War era front stuffer cap revolver ,and you gotta ram these paper things in and cap the nipples......they'd probably throw those pistols right on the ground

I had a Pinay girl in Cebu tell me that her grandmother used an R&S .44 revolver to fight the Japanese invaders in WW2, understandably I believed her......until I discovered my Wallet was empty and she explained that Ghosts were responsible. It was around then that I knew something wasnt right......
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
2,204
Location
Far Away Downs Queensland Australia.
Absolutely correct, the Moros tied thongs around their testicles to elicit an adrenaline rush, used opiates and had leather body armor making them able to soak up a full cylinder of .38 Long and keep fighting, or a few 30-40's .

The shortened "Artillery " Colt P .45's were rushed over to the Phillipines in a stop gap effort to give our guys better stopping power.

I'm wondering if the thong around testicles thing would give a fella some sort of edge during ML range shoots.....asking for a friend.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
2,204
Location
Far Away Downs Queensland Australia.
Well even today, if you were up against a thug all doped up on drugs, nothing short of a brain hit or spinal column hit would stop them and maybe not even then. So no surprise about the doped up Moro warriors.

I remember reading that the Army wanted their .45 revolvers back. The army cavalry was pushing for it more than anything. The cavalry was still the elites of their era. They still wanted to be able to stop horses in a charge and the .38s couldn’t do that. So they came up with the story about the .38s not stopping Moro warriors. That is also why the 1911 .45 acp round duplicated the old .45 Colt round. To keep the cavalry happy.

I think the lesson was that .38cal was nothing more than a "bum stinger", and introduced for economy and recoil moderation.
The Brits went the same way post WW1 with their Webley Revolvers, then hurriedly adopted the American .45 ACP 1911's and Browning 9mm High Powers; in addition to re-introducing the .455 Webleys once WW2 got serious.

Witness how Law Enforcement have gravitated to .40 cal and some still with .45ACP after travelling the .30, .38 spec; 357 magnum route; no matter how old a Man stopping round is its still as effective as it was way back when.
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
290
Reaction score
311
I think the lesson was that .38cal was nothing more than a "bum stinger", and introduced for economy and recoil moderation.
The Brits went the same way post WW1 with their Webley Revolvers, then hurriedly adopted the American .45 ACP 1911's and Browning 9mm High Powers; in addition to re-introducing the .455 Webleys once WW2 got serious.

Witness how Law Enforcement have gravitated to .40 cal and some still with .45ACP after travelling the .30, .38 spec; 357 magnum route; no matter how old a Man stopping round is its still as effective as it was way back when.
Well actually law enforcement copied the FBI and went with 9x19. They all pretty much dropped the .40s&w. Spray and pray is the modern tactic with high capacity magazines.

From a statistical viewpoint the regular handgun calibers are all about equal in stopping power. That is the .32s, 380, 9mm, .357, .38, .40, 10mm, .41, .44, and .45s.

Heck the lowly .22 rimfire may have stopped more assailants than all of the other calibers combined. The .22s have been around since about 1857 or so too. It is still very popular even today.

Doing the math the old cap and ball .36 revolvers looked to be pretty weak. But that caliber was widely used to good effect in its era. It stopped a lot of men. Plus men were a lot more tough back then as compared to today.

The .31 cap and ball evolved into the modern .32s. But it was still quite popular though. Many people carried them back then too.
 

nick_1

40 Cal
Joined
Oct 1, 2022
Messages
214
Reaction score
374
Location
Vermont
The myth that cap and ball civil war revolvers were intentionally zeroed at 75yards.. sorry folks but untill one of you can show me this in writing in an army ordinance Manuel (wickkipidia is not a real source) I am not buying it. A much better observation is that the sights on these rigs are an afterthought and they suck. The only thing any of you have been able to offer is that Elmer Keith said it was true. I suppose the windage was also off intentionally to make it easier to lead a target if they were running the right direction...
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
1,252
Reaction score
2,346
Well actually law enforcement copied the FBI and went with 9x19. They all pretty much dropped the .40s&w. Spray and pray is the modern tactic with high capacity magazines.

From a statistical viewpoint the regular handgun calibers are all about equal in stopping power. That is the .32s, 380, 9mm, .357, .38, .40, 10mm, .41, .44, and .45s.

Heck the lowly .22 rimfire may have stopped more assailants than all of the other calibers combined. The .22s have been around since about 1857 or so too. It is still very popular even today.

Doing the math the old cap and ball .36 revolvers looked to be pretty weak. But that caliber was widely used to good effect in its era. It stopped a lot of men. Plus men were a lot more tough back then as compared to today.

The .31 cap and ball evolved into the modern .32s. But it was still quite popular though. Many people carried them back then too.
We are getting pretty far afield for a Muzzleloading forum, However, this was published a few years ago and you can google it. Covers everything from .22's up.

Defensive Handgun loads, opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow

"The most effective handgun round on the market - regardless of caliber - is the Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint (357B). or the equally good Remington full-power 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint (R357M1)."
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
926
Reaction score
1,856
Law Enforcement returned to the 9mm for a variety reasons. It is easier for a diverse force to fire with control and accuracy, the ammunition is cheaper to purchase by agencies, and some loadings are greatly improved since the 1980's. A pistol chambered in 9mm will also have a longer service life than say, .357 Sig.

Many factors go into selection of a duty weapon. Caliber is not always at the top of the list.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
3,240
Reaction score
5,545
Location
Lancaster County, PA
I just had randomly thought about the many myths I've heard over the years...such as....

Civil War soldiers carried spare cylinders for quick reloads in battle...totally false

Rogers & Spencer revolvers were reissued during the Phillipine Insurrection to stop fanatical Moro tribesman.....I find it unlikely that the US military was digging into storage to unmothball brand new , unissued percussion revolvers made during the Civil War, in 1897 . Colt Model P's were taken out of inventory but they were still bring phased out at this time and were still around in the late 1890s.

If you don't grease your chambers you'll have chain fires........false ....people swore up and down all throughout the 1990s when I first starting shooting my first cap and baller , that I HAD to put grease over my chambers "like they did during the Civil War or you'll get a chain fire" . I've probably fired more ungreased round balls through revolvers this summer alone than the people who tried to make me believe this have in their entire lives.

"I can't imagine guys in battle pouring powder and ramming balls , it takes so long that's crazy " nitrate cartridges and capping are as fast as ejecting brass and reloading a cartridge revolver and faster for a highly skilled shooter . Very few if any user of a percussion revolver in military use was pouring powder besides the Rangers with Patersons and Walkers. Nitrate cartridges were produced in huge amounts by arsenals for both sides during the Civil War which was the largest use of percussion revolvers in any combat.

"Those things are so inaccurate they were for hand to hand fighting " False

Those Confederate revolvers were crude and made as cheap throwaway guns....False, most if not all were very well made by skilled workers. People often apply the Japanese Last Ditch weapon mentality to Confederate firearms
Forget the second cylinder. I'd sooner carry a second revolver.
 

45D

45 Cal.
Joined
Aug 21, 2021
Messages
745
Reaction score
1,272
The myth that cap and ball civil war revolvers were intentionally zeroed at 75yards.. sorry folks but untill one of you can show me this in writing in an army ordinance Manuel (wickkipidia is not a real source) I am not buying it. A much better observation is that the sights on these rigs are an afterthought and they suck. The only thing any of you have been able to offer is that Elmer Keith said it was true. I suppose the windage was also off intentionally to make it easier to lead a target if they were running the right direction...
So, the sights on the revolvers are just "suggestions" while the sights on all other previous arms were intentional . . . I don't think so. That's not a good system for a "battle weapon". I don't know why it's so hard to believe men wouldn't want to have a "range" advantage for military purposes. These revolvers were new then, somebody should have suggested there use should be in "rock throwing" range. Why bother . . .

Mike
 

nick_1

40 Cal
Joined
Oct 1, 2022
Messages
214
Reaction score
374
Location
Vermont
because its just a WAG. anytime the military does anything its in writing. end of story. and to think that they would choose 75 yards as the optimal engagement distance for a handgun is borderline stupid.
 

45D

45 Cal.
Joined
Aug 21, 2021
Messages
745
Reaction score
1,272
because its just a WAG. anytime the military does anything its in writing. end of story. and to think that they would choose 75 yards as the optimal engagement distance for a handgun is borderline stupid.
It's not a WAG if they are all the same. It's called reasonable deduction.


We're so much smarter than they were back then . . . That is the biggest myth of all!!

To wit, only recently a company has been producing a correct to design reproduction ( you can make them right or make them wrong). Except for those, all the reproductions have been wrong.

Mike
 

nick_1

40 Cal
Joined
Oct 1, 2022
Messages
214
Reaction score
374
Location
Vermont
find it in writing. otherwise its a design flaw. those do exist BTW.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
4,691
find it in writing. otherwise its a design flaw. those do exist BTW.
So the military, after 30 plus inspectors have looked at the pistols in question and passed them all, just passed on a design flaw? Note also that the War department continually praised the Colt 1860 Army for its accuracy. Is it possible that they didn’t notice that every single example shot into 2” at 25 yards… 12” high?
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
Messages
607
Reaction score
668
Location
Cave Creek Arizona
The myth that cap and ball civil war revolvers were intentionally zeroed at 75yards.. sorry folks but untill one of you can show me this in writing in an army ordinance Manuel (wickkipidia is not a real source) I am not buying it. A much better observation is that the sights on these rigs are an afterthought and they suck. The only thing any of you have been able to offer is that Elmer Keith said it was true. I suppose the windage was also off intentionally to make it easier to lead a target if they were running the right direction...
I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm gonna look inside a Manuel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top