Ramrod Material

[Zonie]

I realize that a number of our members don't like the NMLRA so they refuse to join it.

Hopefully they won't mind me talking about the November 2008 issues Bevel Brothers column that they missed by not getting the magazine, but I thought it was quite interesting.

Seems we all have heard about ramrods wearing out the muzzles of our guns if they were made out of things like fiber-glass.
Well, they had a question about using fiber-glass ramrods and because they "knew" that only a stainless steel ramrod doesn't contain abrasives or get coated with them that it was the only safe thing to use.

They got to thinking about it and built a machine that would push a short piece of ramrod back and forth in a length of barrel. The machine moved the "ramrods" 7 inches in each direction.
The machine did not have any special provisions for aligning the "ramrods" with the bores so they flopped back and forth as they moved into or out of the barrels.

They then made up some short "ramrods" out of 3/8 diameter wood, fiber-glass rod, solid brass and stainless steel.

They used sections of new .45 caliber barrels they had on hand to test the various ramrod materials. Each barrel was faced off on a lathe and the bores edges were deburred. They did not crown or cone the barrels muzzles.

When all was ready they coated the various ramrods with black powder fouling and added some fouling half way thru each test.

They ran their machine long enough to produce about 30,000 strokes and were quite surprised to find that the only material that actually wore the muzzle was the stainless rod which looked somewhat polished when the tests were finished. The bore that had been tested with the stainless "ramrod" was badly worn. So much so that in the photo it looked like perhaps 1/16 of an inch or more of the bores material was worn away on each side of the muzzle.

All of the other materials (wood, fiber-glass, brass) showed a lot of wear on the rods but the barrels they were used in were in fine condition.

From this I think we can learn that if you are using a stainless ramrod the use of a centering cone is a must.
If you are using wood, brass or fiber-glass barrel wear apparently isn't a big issue.

 

[huntswnm]

What do you think about aluminum Zonie?
I ask cause that is what mine is. My wood one broke the first time I used it (it was used) so I got the ends off of the wood one and found an aluminum arrow that was the same outside diameter and glued the end on. Has worked great but I have always wondered if it is doing damage to the barrel that I am not seeing.

jeff

 

[Smk50]

From being in the metals and welding industry, I believe the only thing that willl cause signifigant wear will be if it(ramrod material) is harder than the base metal(barrel) so the aluminum would be OK, depending on the alloy it would be around the same "hardness" as a brass rod. I always use a muzzle cone with my range rods anyway.

 

[shmrck1]

Zonie,
Great info! Thanks for the post.
snake-eyes:hatsoff:

 

[50cal.cliff]

Zonie, that is a very informative post and confirms kind of what I "thunk" all along! :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Interesting post in spite of the commercial for the NMLRA :grin: .

I always accepted what I had read here in blind faith that wooden ramrods would pick up dirt and wear muzzles, that T/C's fiberglas resin impregnated wooden rods would cause wear at the muzzle, that fiberglas super-rods would cause wear at the muzzle, steel, brass, etc...all needed muzzle guildes period, etc...and I listened...every short starter or ramrod I own has muzzle protection.

BUT...I have a some Uncle Mike's short starters...2" wooden balls, stainless steel shafts, screw in caliber tips and tapered brass muzzle guides on the shafts. They each have several thousand uses on them now and the tapered brass guides have deep grooves worn into/around them...like annular rings in a tree...from all the seating / pounding they get contacting the ends of the lands at the muzzles. But to my knowledge the muzzles have no wear or at least no detectable ill effects from the thouands of impacts over the years.

HOWEVER...I'll throw this our for what its worth:
In about 10 years of bow hunting, I used stainless steel dual arm shoot through arrow rests on my compound bows. It only took a few hundred shots of 32" Easton aluminium XX75 arrow shafts to begin showing wear on those stainless steel arrow rest arms...so much so that the industry made slip on nylon sleeves to protect the arms so you could just periodically replace the inexpensive nylon sleeves.

So for my own peace of mind, I'll continue to use muzzle guides regardless.

PS:
Reminds me of the test results published by the Bevel Brothers indicating spru position had no effect on accuracy...the impression I'm under is that anybody who believed in aligning the spru still does so today in spite of the tests...or maybe I'm the only one who continues to do that...

 

[paulvallandigham]

This is one column where I think the boys missed the mark, and very wide.

It may be that steel rods will hold onto gunk that is purposely placed on them well enough to abrade a steel muzzle, but in real life, Steel rods are the easiest to wipe and keep clean.

What does the abrading in real life- and more so when barrels were made from softer iron, Before the Civil War- is the silicon( sand) grit that gets into the fouling in the barrel, and on soft rods. That grit imbeds itself into the surface of wood, plastic, fiberglass, aluminum, and even brass. Wiping down the rods is not going to remove it all. It is that grit that wears on a barrel.

The only part of the column with which I agreed with the Bevel Brothers is that a modern shooter is not likely to have to worry very much about abrading his muzzle out of round. It took them 30,000 strokes without cleaning- and in fact adding more GUNK half way through to get some measureable wear. Modern steels are TOUGH. You are more likely to burnish down the rifling enough with 30,000 rounds to justify buying a new barrel, than to ruin that muzzle. I don't know anyone who goes 30,000 strokes without cleaning off their range rods. I suppose there are some target shooters who shoot 30,000 rounds through a gun, but the ones I know who do that volume of shooting are replacing the barrels for other reason long before that many rounds go down the barrel.

So, its pretty much a non-existent problem with modern barrels. If you want to see what this kind of muzzle wear looks like, there is a wonderful article in the 1977 Volumn of Gun Digest,pp.184-187, by Hal Hartley, and famous stockmaker, about how he found and restored an original Percussion long rifle that was made and owned by his Grandfather, " Ol' Yellow Jacket Shoots Again". On Page 185, he has a picture of the original muzzle showing wear and abuse. I believe he cut off about 1/16" of the muzzle to restore the gun's original accuracy, after "freshing" out the rifling. Altho he ascribes it to ramrod wear, I believe there is evidence that the old gun was "Coned " for about 2-3 inches back from the muzzle. We didn't understand Coning, or the reason for it, or understand how wide-spread the practice was in older guns, back in the 1970s.

 

[RiverRat]

I read the article and found it interesting. A few years ago I stopped by Dixon's ML Shop and was looking at all the different ramrods they had for sale made from stainless, fiberglass, plastic, and some combinations of such. I asked Chuck what he preferred, and he looked at me in a puzzled way and said "Hickory always worked for me". I felt alittle stupid and purchased a handfull of hickory blanks.

 

[omarick1948]

Thanks for the information Zonie!

Don't think that it was any type of NMLRA commerial, :bull: but stating a source for the information. I have two of the old "Wonder Rods" that I use for cleaning, made of a plastic material, as you probably already know. I don't think that I have had any muzzle wear from those rods.

Thanks again for the info as MOST of us enjoy your expert input!... :thumbsup:

Rick

 

[2172]

I read the article, I believe it, I still aline the sprue..Hank

 

[roundball]

Thanks for the information Zonie!

Don't think that it was any type of NMLRA commerial, :bull: but stating a source for the information. I have two of the old "Wonder Rods" that I use for cleaning, made of a plastic material, as you probably already know. I don't think that I have had any muzzle wear from those rods.

Thanks again for the info as MOST of us enjoy your expert input!... :thumbsup:

Rick

Your comments make it sound like you have problems with anyone who might have a different view of things.
:shake:
And then it seems you made the false assumption that because there was some other information shared into the thread, that somehow it meant that his input was not enjoyed or appreciated.
:shake:

You're wrong on both accounts...
:thumbsup:

 

[MikeChapin]

I read the article and thought the test was flawed. If just the materiel is being tested, of course the steel will wear more than the other stuff.

It's not the materiel that causes muzzle wear, it's the grit that the materiel picks up that does the job. In the field fiberglass and wood will pick up barrel gunk more readily than metal. Metal can be wiped clean with a swipe of the rag where fiberglass and wood can imbed the particles. These particles act like rubbing compound and cause the wear.

I use two different range rods, one made of 1/4" stainless and the other of 7/16" wood. The thing that both have in common is a muzzle protector that keeps the rod off the muzzle and rifling. I had to recrown two rifles in the past using just the ramrods in the rifle. Since going to muzzle protectors, I have never had a problem with the rifle losing accuracy due to a worn muzzle. Now all that loses accuracy is the operator.

 

[MikeC]

I use stainless Treso rods at the range and wood in the field. That being said has anyone used one of the newer carbon fiber rods (Tipton Brand), supposed to be the best material available. Light weight, will not pick up grit and will never wear out a barrel from rubbing.

 

[Tkendrick]

It's not the materiel that causes muzzle wear, it's the grit that the materiel picks up that does the job. In the field fiberglass and wood will pick up barrel gunk more readily than metal. Metal can be wiped clean with a swipe of the rag where fiberglass and wood can imbed the particles. These particles act like rubbing compound and cause the wear.

I don't think that's entirely true. While the grit may increase the rate of wear, the steel is going to cause some wear all by itself. If this wasn't the case, then butchers steels and tool burnishing rods wouldn't work.

It stands to reason. The harder a material more it's going to wear on an equally hard or softer material. Black powder fouling is pretty soft. Lead and patching materials are too. You start having problems where sand and dirt get into the mix.

None of those are as hard as a stainless rod. Steel rods are going to work on the muzzle, whether they are clean or not.

I read the bevel brothers pretty frequently, and quit frankly think about half of what they write is highly questionable, but I think they hit this one on the mark.

 

[jtmattison]

Interesting.

I use stainless steel range rods but I use a brass guide to protect the muzzle.

HD

 

[nw_hunter]

I tend to agree with SMK50.
I found the thread very interesting Zonie Thanks!

"About the sprue" I position mine up, and the reason for it, is to make starting the ball easier.

I've found, that no matter where I position it, I still get an 18' group at 25 yrds.(OOPS) make that 18 " :surrender:

 

[mazo kid]

Zonie, thanks for posting that info. I don't think it should matter if you are an NMLRA member or not, everyone is entititled to their own opinion. I personally am a Life Member; yeah, I don't care much for their in-line policies, but they are about the only thing out there advocating for black powder sports. I am also a Life Member of NRA and there are things about both organizations that I don't agree with, but will continue to support them. Sorry if I am off topic here, feel free to move or delete as you see fit.

 

[tg]

"Reminds me of the test results published by the Bevel Brothers indicating spru position had no effect on accuracy...the impression I'm under is that anybody who believed in aligning the spru still does so today in spite of the tests...or maybe I'm the only one who continues to do that...

Guilty here of continuing old habits, I have never bought completely into the ramrod wear theory, many years ago I just did not see any evidence when measuring with calipers or looking for residue with a magnet.

 

[jbwilliams3]

Interesting article, regardless of any flaws- I wouldn't know. I have only been active in muzzleloading for a few short years, but the gentleman who influenced me to get into it had decades and decades of experience. My good friend has only used a wooden rod for just about everything on his one and only flintlock and it still shoots clovers. No discernible wear.

When someone once told me that stainless steel was a good idea for a cleaning rod, I had only to think of the knife steel that sits in my kitchen to deter me from believing it.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for the Thanks.

As I already said, I think the real thing that their test shows is that if you are going to use a material that is harder than the barrel for a ramrod, you should be using a plastic, nylon, brass, wood? centering cone to keep the rod away from the barrels bore.

As for Aluminum, this material is a very active material. Just sitting there on a shelf the aluminum will combine with the oxygen in the air and form a very thin coating of Aluminum Oxide.
Anodizing aluminum is simply a process which speeds up this oxidizing and creates a thicker layer of aluminum oxide.
Hard Anodizing is a related process that builds up an even thicker layer of the same Aluminum Oxide.

Why am I dwelling on Aluminum Oxide? Because it is harder than the hubs of hell.
Some sandpaper is made using Aluminum Oxide.
Many grinding wheels are made out of Aluminum Oxide.

While the alloys of aluminum are relatively soft this layer of Aluminum Oxide is not so I would say if you are using an aluminum ramrod you would be well advised to use the same kind of centering guide that you should be using with steel.

While I have the soap box I'll add that brass or bronze is a softer material that does not build up some sort of hard coating. It also has a "natural lubricating" property when it is rubbed against steel or iron.

As for dirt and such, I agree that the Bevel Brothers could have been more "real world" and doused their test ramrods with some dirt.
Dirt, which contains aluminum oxide, hard silicone compounds and who knows what else, is extremely abrasive and even on a soft material like wood it can (and will) cause wear in a guns bore so it is a good idea to keep the ramrod free of dirt and any grease that could hold dirt on the surface.