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Questions about original Hawken Halfstocks

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50cal.cliff

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So I am entertaining the idea of my next build being a .50 Hawken Halfstocks. As I am looking at the furniture I see it in brass and steel. I am thinking of using all steel furniture and browning like the rifle will be!!


Here is a link to this supposedly Samuel Hawken origional, that sold for $22,000 shocked.jpg I found it doing a search for information on original Halfstosk This Hawken. it is listed as, (A) EXTREMELY SCARCE & HIGH CONDITION SAMUEL HAWKEN PERCUSSION RIFLE

(A) EXTREMELY SCARCE & HIGH CONDITION SAMUEL HAWKEN PERCUSSION RIFLE. | Firearms & Military Artifacts Firearms Percussions | Online Auctions | Proxibid

If you notice is has brass toe plate, trigger guard, nose piece and escutcheons. Also this one has only one barrel wedge!

So back to the question was it common for the time of the Hawken Halfstock to have brass furniture on it!
 
Not common, but a few have survived. In addition to the rifle you linked, the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody, WY has a brass mounted Hawken rifle that otherwise fits the configuration of a Hawken Mountain Rifle aka a plains rifle in modern jargon. I'm not sure what caliber it is but appears from pictures to be at least a .50 caliber.

The Hawken brothers also made some small caliber (.45 and smaller) "sporting" rifles for the local market, many of which have brass mounts.

The Hawken rifle you linked has been discussed on the forum before. I've suggested that it might be an example of what some period advertisements called a "California" rifle. It is similar to rifles made by Dimick and later by Gemmer, but also made all across the country from New York to California in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century.
 
As above, lots of brass mounted and even silver mounted rifles were made by the brothers. Most of their plains guns were iron mount, but not universal. And they didn’t know the rules for building Hawkens and even mixed metals on some guns.
They had fancy cap boxes but even some eastren style patch boxes on their guns, in brass
 
A top builder of Hawken rifles gave me great advice: Don’t bother to build a generic Hawken rifle. Replicate an original.
The gun referenced above, with single key and brass furniture, most closely resembles the half dozen local squirrel rifles made by Samuel Hawken I’ve seen in person.
 
Get a copy of the new book on Hawken's from the NMLRA

Anyone got a discount code for the purchase of the, "The Hawken Rifle - Its Evolution from 1822-1870" ?
That looks like a good reference!


Plmeek
The Hawken rifle you linked has been discussed on the forum before. I've suggested that it might be an example of what some period advertisements called a "California" rifle. It is similar to rifles made by Dimick and later by Gemmer, but also made all across the country from New York to California in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century.

So what your saying this is a later Hawken that I linked!!

I debated as to whether I wanted to ask this question before opened Pandora's Box. IE "Original Hawken's"! I have been down this road before and do not want to start a war! I am merely looking for info! I am going to need to do some more research on this subject. I want to have a clear destination before I start my build!! Thanks for the responses and I look forward to input from others on this subject!!
 
50cal.cliff,

The link to (A) EXTREMELY SCARCE & HIGH CONDITION SAMUEL HAWKEN PERCUSSION RIFLE at Proxibid you posted above is a mid- to late-1850s rifle.

I saw it at the Colorado Gun Collectors Show here in Denver a few years ago. The auction company, Morphy Auction, had it on display at their table. The barrel, breech & tang, and lock are of the same dimensions and style as on the Kit Carson Hawken in Santa Fe, NM and the Jim Bridger Hawken in Helena, MT. The stock is the same profile, too. The butt plate and nose cap may have been cast from the same patterns as used for the Carson and Bridger rifles, just cast in brass rather than iron. The big difference is the trigger guard, obviously. This brass mounted rifle could have been made at the same time or a little later than the Carson and Bridger rifles.

By 1855, Sam Hawken had semi-retired from the gun business and let his son, William, take over operations of the shop. William Hawken and Tristian Campbell began advertising in 1855 that they were doing business as Hawken & Campbell next door to Sam's old stand. They advertised repairs and "Mountain and California Rifles made to order" through 1855 and into 1856. On February 29, 1856 a notice ran in the paper that William S. Hawken and Tristiam Campbell were dissolving their partnership. In March of 1857, William Hawken began advertising under his own name at the old address of his father's stand. These ad ran until August 15, 1857 when a notice ran that William Hawken had essentially declared personal bankruptcy and was settling outstanding claims against him.

William continued to be listed in business directories as a gunsmith, but not as a proprietor. Sam also was occasionally listed as a gunsmith, but apparently not associated with his son. The last listing in a directory for Sam as a gunsmith was in 1859.

In that year, Sam decided he want to see the Mountains and try his hand in the Colorado gold fields. He traveled from St. Louis to Denver via the Santa Fe Trail for most of the way, then up the Trappers Trail from the vicinity of present day Pueblo, CO to Denver. Sam worked in the gold fields for six or so weeks before coming to the conclusions that the best sources for gold had already been claimed, then went back to Denver and opened a gun shop in Auraria. In 1860, his son, William, and old employee Tristian Campbell made the trek from St. Louis to Denver and joined Sam in the gun shop.

The brass mounted rifle that sold at Morphy Auction could have been made before 1855 or possibly up to the time that Sam left for Denver in 1859. It seems that Sam was only working part-time as a gunsmith from 1855 to 1859, but still could have made some rifles in this period.

The style of half stock rifle like the brass mounted Hawken that sold at Morphy Auction continued to be popular from the 1850s through the rest of the muzzleloader era. Sam was no longer making them, but other gunsmiths all across the country were. Some were large caliber plains rifles but most were small caliber sporting and target rifles, even though the heavy barrels were still present.

I second the post from Rich Pierce about the advice that he got from "a top builder of Hawken rifles...: Don’t bother to build a generic Hawken rifle. Replicate an original."

That's easier said than done based on the parts that are currently available. The Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, WA has an authentic kit as most of the metal parts were cast from an original S. Hawken rifle. Track's Jim Bridger Hawken kit is basically the same as the late S. Hawken rifles that GRRW was making from the end of 1976 until they closed in Sept 1980. These in turn are close but not exact copies of the Jim Bridger Hawken in the Montana Historical Society collection. Don Stith has kits that are very authentic, but I don't know if his medical condition is allowing him to attend to his business.

Beyond these kits you are on your own to assemble parts and try to copy an original as closely as possible. Other Hawken kits like Track's Kit Carson kit and Pecatonica's Hawken kits are mere approximations or representations of a Hawken rifle.

A couple of rifles assembled from Hawken Shop Hawken kits (from the Art Ressel period).

IMG_2646_low res.jpg

IMG_2647_low res.jpg
 
I would never claim to be an expert in Hawken rifles, but years ago I came across these pics of a rifle displayed by the Montana Historical Society. This original rifle seemed to be representative of the archetypal Hawken rifle of the Great Plains. I was interested in choosing and finishing a maple replacement stock for my circa 70’s Western Arms Hawken.
EB5BD9E5-C66A-4C84-8761-111F95882F9D.jpeg
F4474270-CA87-448C-8F6F-9CC815CF0BA2.jpeg
 
Rich is correct. The Montana Historical Society J&S Hawken is an early rifle and is stocked in walnut.

It is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the brass mounted S. Hawken rifle the OP started this thread with, both in time and features.

The MHS J&S Hawken is related to the Peterson J&S Hawken in the Cody Firearms Museum and the GW Atchison silver mounted presentation J&S Hawken that has sold twice at auction in recent years.

But I don't recommend we take a deep dive into J&S Hawken styles. It would be hijacking the OP's thread and take a "book length" discussion to do it justice.
 
Wow, some deep information!

You know what catches my eye about these rifles. The top one is property of the MT Historical society.

1626795370819.png



Meek posted these two as. A couple of rifles assembled from Hawken Shop Hawken kits (from the Art Ressel period).
1626795266904.png

This is the Jim Bridger from the Montana.Gov site. The barrel is pictured in the photo below that, from the same gun!
1626795441488.png
1626795503974.png


The one thing that catches my eye is that they all have steel furniture! The next thing that jumps out at me it the end of the stock at the ramrod. The shape and length of the step in the top one and the S Hawken from St. Louis at the ramrod entry to the stock!

The two posted from Meek representative (from the Art Ressel period). The forend of the stock at the ramrod entry is unique in the way they sweep up! Another thing that jumps out at me is they all have two wedge keys!

I think I will purchase the book on Hawken's from the NMLRA! I mean I have blown that amount of money before. However I don't feel this would be money blown, this clearly would be an investment!!

Clearly I need to do some more research!! Thanks for the information guys. I am leaning towards something like the Jim Bridger Hawken at this time! The Kit Carson and the Jim Bridger appear to be quite similar! Can anyone share with any differences in the two??
 
In 2004 or 2005, there was a very long running post here on the Hawken rifles which went over 30 pages started by a guy here in Texas. If you can find it, it contains a wealth of information.
 
So I am entertaining the idea of my next build being a .50 Hawken Halfstocks. As I am looking at the furniture I see it in brass and steel. I am thinking of using all steel furniture and browning like the rifle will be!!


Here is a link to this supposedly Samuel Hawken origional, that sold for $22,000 View attachment 85704 I found it doing a search for information on original Halfstosk This Hawken. it is listed as, (A) EXTREMELY SCARCE & HIGH CONDITION SAMUEL HAWKEN PERCUSSION RIFLE

(A) EXTREMELY SCARCE & HIGH CONDITION SAMUEL HAWKEN PERCUSSION RIFLE. | Firearms & Military Artifacts Firearms Percussions | Online Auctions | Proxibid

If you notice is has brass toe plate, trigger guard, nose piece and escutcheons. Also this one has only one barrel wedge!

So back to the question was it common for the time of the Hawken Halfstock to have brass furniture on it!

The Hawken shop ultimately employed up to over 20 gunsmiths and made whatever style of gun the customer wanted. So your question is sort of like asking if any Remingtons (and Remington did make halfstock percussion rifles back in the day) had any particular characteristics. What we visualize when we say Hawken, is the J&S or just S Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifle which was a particular style of heavy rugged type & style. Look at The Hawken Shoppe to see what these looked/look like. Once I found this, I could not have anything else! I have one I built in the late 70's using the 100% authentic parts from the original Hawken Shop. I've built several others, but this one is my crowning achievement.
 
Clearly I need to do some more research!!

The Kit Carson and the Jim Bridger appear to be quite similar! Can anyone share with any differences in the two??

Yes, I would encourage you to do lots of research.

The Hawken brothers worked as partners from 1825 until Jacob's death in 1849--almost 25 years. Sam took over running the shop after Jacob's death and worked full time for the next five years. He went into semi-retirement by 1855, but continued to show up in business directories occasionally as a gunsmith until 1859 when he went to Denver. I think we can assume he continued to make some rifles on a part-time basis from 1854 to 1859, though he was also involved in civic duties and working a farm.

The point I'm trying to make is that they built rifles over a long period of time during which they made small changes in their rifles. These rifles were also built one-at-a-time rather than on an assembly line so individual differences between guns would have been a natural result. It wasn't until the mid-1850s that Sam started using cast metal parts for the butt plate, trigger guard, nose cap and likely the breech & tang. These cast parts dictated many of the lines of the rifle and we start to see rifles that look more alike, but not exactly alike.

The Carson and the Bridger rifles were made with the cast parts I mention above which is why they look similar. I would have to see if I have detail measurements on the Bridger lock, but I think there are slight differences in the locks on the two rifles. You may notice that the lock on the Bridger rifle is canted on the stock with the tail of the lock plate lower than the front. The Carson rifle lock is more level. The barrel on the Bridger is essentially a straight octagon. There is a slight taper from breech to muzzle, but it is almost negligible. The barrel on the Carson Hawken tapers from 1⅛" at the breech to 1" at the nose cap, then is essentially straight to the muzzle. The barrel lengths are also different. The Bridger barrel is 33⅛" while the Carson barrel is two inches shorter at 31⅛" long. There are likely some small differences in some of the stock dimensions.
 
I am beginning to understand the devil is in the details!

Does anyone remember the name of the thread or the members name in the thread that FishDFly spoke of??
In 2004 or 2005, there was a very long running post here on the Hawken rifles which went over 30 pages started by a guy here in Texas. If you can find it, it contains a wealth of information.
 
Last edited:
I cannot remember the name of the guy who started the thread.

He was from Whitehouse which is near Tyler and he died in 2007 or 2008.

At the time it was the longest running thread ever. Only Zonie might remember as most folks from that time period are not here any more.

After Claude sold the Forum, lots of things disappeared, it's history and folks login names.

Might ask Angie for help.
 
Thanks FishDFly!

I didn't realize I was taking a stick and poking one of these Hornets nest thumbnail.jpg !! I now am beginning to realize why the subject original Hawken opens up such a discussion!
 
Yep and it produces lots of interesting reading.

Don Stith makes some very authentic/correct kits, unfortunately he is going thru major health challenges right now.

Going to call the NMLRA in the morning and order the book.

Another place to see some really nice Hawken's for sale is at TOW, great pictures to ogle.

Herb in the past would post pictures of his here.
 
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