Question for the flintlock crowd

[MarylandML]

I was talking to a few older gentlemen about old muzzleloaders and we got on the topic of "Over the Mountain" barrels. Like the ones that are 50"+. One of the older gentleman said when he was growing up in Tennesee before moving to Baltimore he said there was a man in his 50's with a 55" barrel .45 caliber rifle and he would go deer hunting all the time and got to shoot it a few times at old metal buckets and coffee cans. Question is do smaller caliber rifles suffer from such long barrels due to their smaller powder charges ? I can understand something like a .54-.62 would take a 100-120g charge just fine but would a smaller caliber like .40,.44 and .45 suffer from a barrel length of 50"+ ?

 

[tnlonghunter]

I can't say I've ever shot a barrel that long. Sounds like a chunk gun, maybe (someone else correct my terminology)? The concept being a big heavy rifle meant for shooting off a rest, like a big log. That was relatively common in parts of the south.

It probably wouldn't be an enormous detriment and might work quite well with a slightly bigger-than-average charge.

 

[MarylandML]

I can't say I've ever shot a barrel that long. Sounds like a chunk gun, maybe (someone else correct my terminology)? The concept being a big heavy rifle meant for shooting off a rest, like a big log. That was relatively common in parts of the south.

It probably wouldn't be an enormous detriment and might work quite well with a slightly bigger-than-average charge.

Not trying to contradict you in any way but dont abnormally large charges tend to burn out your patch ? Also that fits the description perfectly. "Chunk Gun" that is, the old man said the rifle weighed in at roughly 13 pounds he believed.

 

[Rifleman1776]

There can be diminishing returns with an extra long barrel. e.g. once the charge is burned the extra barrel length may actually drag the ball down to a lower velocity . The flip side of that, as some are sure to point out, is the extra length actually (maybe) gives the powder an opportunity to burn more fully. There are published discussions and tests on this subject. Some searching will find them for you.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Most likely the long barrel was an aid for older eyes that have difficulty focusing on objects at shorter distances. The extra-long barrel would put the sight further out and back in focus. Also that rifle was probably intended as an over-the-log (chunk gun, table gun) target rifle.

 

[MarylandML]

Most likely the long barrel was an aid for older eyes that have difficulty focusing on objects at shorter distances. The extra-long barrel would put the sight further out and back in focus. Also that rifle was probably intended as an over-the-log (chunk gun, table gun) target rifle.

Interesting, would a rifle of a length say .45 caliber with a 50" barrel be even worth purchasing? If I ever come across one in the future that is. Or are the negatives outweighing the positives with small caliber and long barrel ?

 

[TraderVic]

I would think it would totally depend on the individual shooter preferences. For me it would likely be a bit unwieldy to use it for any purpose other than targets.

 

[longcruise]

Interesting, would a rifle of a length say .45 caliber with a 50" barrel be even worth purchasing? If I ever come across one in the future that is. Or are the negatives outweighing the positives with small caliber and long barrel ?

I don’t think the negatives and positives are the same for each person. Obviously there is no consensus here regarding the internal ballistics of a long barrel. The weight or distribution of weight will be of more or less importance to any given shooter.

As far as the internal ballistics go, it could be tested. Course you'd have to cut the barrel down in increments to fi d out. and, results would need to be checked with 5 or 6 powder charges to be definitive. Seems like a big project that would have at least one predictable result. A ruined barrel.

 

[tenngun]

Lyman found diminishing returns at around 42”.
And round balls driven at high velocities don’t pay off down range. The lighter the ball the worse the effects.
However I would hazard that longer barrel could handle increased powder chargers better. Even to a 1:1 in a .45.
In ranges under a hundred yards could result in flatter trajectory and decreased time in flight????
One would have to test to find out.
I note historicly there were lots of long toms, even up to six feet on the Hudson River fowlers, but by 1750-1800 that 42” or so became common(38-46) in most arms.

 

[ohio ramrod]

The diminishing returns for barrels over 42 inches is the reason most barrel manufactures limit their lengths to 42 inches.Experience is a good teacher.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Interesting, would a rifle of a length say .45 caliber with a 50" barrel be even worth purchasing? If I ever come across one in the future that is. Or are the negatives outweighing the positives with small caliber and long barrel ?

I would think it would totally depend on the individual shooter preferences. For me it would likely be a bit unwieldy to use it for any purpose other than targets.

Exactly, the question is what does "worth" mean to you the buyer?

Do you buy it because it's a really odd barrel length so you find owning it is fun? AH perhaps the fact it's a conversation piece on display in your home make it worth owning it?

Do you buy it because it's really accurate for you the shooter?

Perhaps it was made by a certain builder and you always wanted one of his builds, but his rifles rarely come onto the market, and you didn't care how long the barrel was it was made by him, and it was affordable?

In your scenario, the fellow with the 55" barrel when deer hunting with it all the time..., so for him it apparently worked great.


LD

 

[hanshi]

There always reaches a point where bore friction overcomes ball inertia. I'd guess a lot depends on caliber and barrel length. For most calibers the point where the speed increase per grain of powder turns down sharply is already past an ideal barrel length. It's not likely such a rifle as you describe is a "hunting" rifle but rather a rifle for some type of specific target work.

 

[nhmoose]

Until someone chronographs one it is all just chewing suppositions.

Given the chance I would jump rapidly on a 50-inch barrel.

 

[flntlokr]

Originally, I read, the longer barrels evolved from the short Jaeger-type barrels in Colonial times because the colonists relied on home-made powder that was frequently of low quality, and the longer barrels were required to accellerate the balls to useful velocities in the smaller calibre guns being made at the time. Not of much need these days unless you are into making powder from nitrates leached from barnyard dirt as they did then.

 

[flconch53]

Chunk guns were target rifles fired primarily from the prone position with the barrel supported by a chunk of wood. Can't say that it would be much fun to carry in the woods. The best known chunk gun match in today's world is the Alvin York shoot in Tennessee

 

[tnlonghunter]

Not trying to contradict you in any way but dont abnormally large charges tend to burn out your patch ? Also that fits the description perfectly. "Chunk Gun" that is, the old man said the rifle weighed in at roughly 13 pounds he believed.

Certainly, that's possible. I would think that also would be affected by condition of the bore, patch material and thickness, lube, and so forth. I'm not necessarily advocating for a huge powder charge, but maybe 15-20% bigger if the other factors work with it.

Also, where in Maryland are you? I'm south of Baltimore, near Ft. Meade.

 

[amicalola]

63.5” barrel, 40 caliber, and I’ve only got to shoot it twice so far. Loads as small as 48 grains to as high as 100 gr. Both shot silver dollar at 60 yards. That’s not good enough grouping to impress, but I have yet to finish developing loads and improving my site picture. I don’t think the long barrel is that necessary for accuracy myself, but I purchased it because of the novelty.

And yes, step ladder required. Back in the day people would experiment trying to outdo their buddies!

 

[nhmoose]

Or lean the butt way away from you or do as a nephew does for his HB flinter is dig a hole to put the butt down into reach the muzzle at chin height.

 

[Sun City]

Extended sight radius is advantageous!!

 

[tenngun]

Originally, I read, the longer barrels evolved from the short Jaeger-type barrels in Colonial times because the colonists relied on home-made powder that was frequently of low quality, and the longer barrels were required to accellerate the balls to useful velocities in the smaller calibre guns being made at the time. Not of much need these days unless you are into making powder from nitrates leached from barnyard dirt as they did then.

I’ve heard that too since I got in to the sport. However I wonder if it just wasn’t style. Dutch English and French were making long barreled guns back at the beginning on colonial times.