Question about different bullets for use in my sidelock 45 cal

[sisiphunter]

Hello all,
I have a sidelock percussion 45 cal longer barrel. I've had good accuracy with patch rb. And great success on targets and a deer this year with the lee r.e.a.l. Bullet using 60gr FFFg.

I recently acquired a lee mold 45 cal 405gr hollow base round nose. It casts out to .461". I can size down to .452". I was thinking about trying this bullet in my muzzleloader. Any thoughts?? Is .452" the right size to size to??

The purpose is to try and get a heavier bullet and this looks like it may work to me. I bought theirs orginally for the 45-70 I have on my wish list. I just came across the mold at a good deal I couldn't pass up. Thanks in advance. Matt.

 

[Drago]

You have it so give it a try, From what I have read the length of the bullet has a lot to do with performance, Something like 1.5 times the diameter of ball for max length, but you may be able to adjust powder charge to get accurate results. If it does'nt work, you still get to spend the day at the range.

 

[Black Jack]

The bullet you describe was, I believe, designed for use in a 45-70. At 405 grs it is a lot heavier than even a TC .45 cal Maxi Ball at 245 grs. I do not know what size wall thickness and type of barrel you have but I would be very cautious with powder charges. Seems like you would need a very fast twist barrel to stabilize a bullet that long. At the very least, you're looking at a hard recoiling load and a bullet a lot heavier than what is needed for hunting. IMHO.

 

[gunner69skmc]

I think I would stick with the,already proven, R.E.A.L. There are two weights of .45 R.E.A.L. bullets, if I remember correctly, are you currently shooting the heaviest?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Yep....fast twist will be needed for a bullet that long.

Another thing to consider is that hollow base bullets should be under bore diameter....not bigger. The hollow base expands to engage the rifling when the gun is fire.

If your bullet is "growing" to .461, you are correct that you will have to resize. Proper diameter will be determined by your individual bore size.

If you have a fast twist barrel and are conviced that you need to try these, you can get a bullet sizing die from Lee and run them through this in a reloading press.

For future reference, I believe you are going to find .461" too big for the 45/70 also. Resizing the bullets is the only solution, and likely you will find the ideal diameter for this will be different than for your muzzleloader.

I sure you know that pills that big are going to produce a lot of recoil. Make sure your ML is up to the task. I would seriously consider the "why" I need a bullet that weighs that much. These are generally used by guys shooting very long range targets with heavy guns.

Good luck and enjoy, J.D.

 

[David W.]

The longer the bullet is, the faster the twist needs to be. If you have a 1 in 60 twist, you may not get the accuracy you're looking for. If you have a 1 in 48, it's possible to get some accuracy from a longer bullet.

 

[sisiphunter]

Ok thanks guys. In answer to some questions. I believe I do have a 1-60 twist. Pretty slow for this long of a boolit. And I'm not sure why this particular mold casts so large but either way ill have to size for my eventual 45-70. Rather it cast a bit large than too small. As for why try this cause I want to see how it would do. Just wanted to make sure it was safe to try. I've been using ML's for most of my hunting for quite a few years now. Started flint then percussion. Refusing to go to the popular inline. Like I say I got this mold on a good deal and thought maybe try a few in the ml. And see how she goes. If nothing else a learning experience and I still have my known good load and boolit. Thanks for the responses guys. If I start at say 50 gr of FFFg. Would this be safe to see if they fly??

I have an old Jukar in good shape. I know this is a low end arm but I like it and like I say it handles prb and lee real with no issues. As for the weight of my real it is the heavier one.

 

[David W.]

50 gr FFFg in a 45 will be safe to try. One way to tell if you're getting too much pressure in a percussion, is if the hammer flies back to half-cock when fired. It's not the only way, but it's an indicator.

 

[jdkerstetter]

1:66" is a roundball barrel. Way too slow for bullets. They will tumble and keyhole targets.

Are you casting the bullets in this mold with soft pure lead? If you are I suspect that is why you are getting over sized bullets, since this mold was designated for cartridge reloading.

As I understand it, hard alloy lead bullets cast smaller (or shrink more) than pure soft lead. Molds are sized to compensate for this and will cast different diameters with different metals.

Sizing is the way to go as it gives you consistancy and is all but required when loading cartridges. Enjoy, J.D.

 

[larry wv]

I think I would forget this idea. No good reason for any of it. Not trying to be a butt hole but its going to be a waste of powder. Larry

 

[mooman76]

Ok thanks guys. In answer to some questions. I believe I do have a 1-60 twist. Pretty slow for this long of a boolit. And I'm not sure why this particular mold casts so large but either way ill have to size for my eventual 45-70. Rather it cast a bit large than too small. As for why try this cause I want to see how it would do. Just wanted to make sure it was safe to try. I've been using ML's for most of my hunting for quite a few years now. Started flint then percussion. Refusing to go to the popular inline. Like I say I got this mold on a good deal and thought maybe try a few in the ml. And see how she goes. If nothing else a learning experience and I still have my known good load and boolit. Thanks for the responses guys. If I start at say 50 gr of FFFg. Would this be safe to see if they fly??

I have an old Jukar in good shape. I know this is a low end arm but I like it and like I say it handles prb and lee real with no issues. As for the weight of my real it is the heavier one.

The bullet mould cast that large because that typically is what is needed for a 45-70 and it is a mould for the 45-70. That usually need at least a .459 or .460 bullet.

 

[GaCop]

Ok thanks guys. In answer to some questions. I believe I do have a 1-60 twist. Pretty slow for this long of a boolit. And I'm not sure why this particular mold casts so large but either way ill have to size for my eventual 45-70. Rather it cast a bit large than too small. As for why try this cause I want to see how it would do. Just wanted to make sure it was safe to try. I've been using ML's for most of my hunting for quite a few years now. Started flint then percussion. Refusing to go to the popular inline. Like I say I got this mold on a good deal and thought maybe try a few in the ml. And see how she goes. If nothing else a learning experience and I still have my known good load and boolit. Thanks for the responses guys. If I start at say 50 gr of FFFg. Would this be safe to see if they fly??

I have an old Jukar in good shape. I know this is a low end arm but I like it and like I say it handles prb and lee real with no issues. As for the weight of my real it is the heavier one.

The bullet mould cast that large because that typically is what is needed for a 45-70 and it is a mould for the 45-70. That usually need at least a .459 or .460 bullet.

+1, my 45-70 shoots very accurate with a .459" gaschecked or .460" plain base bullets.

Tom

 

[Deadeye]

JD, you got that backwards. The soft lead casts smaller and the harder it is the larger it casts.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Thanks. So it's just a matter of using too large a mold then......45CF rifles using larger bullets than .45ML rifles. J.D.

 

[Col. Batguano]

What is the twist rate in trapdoor Springfields, and most commercial 45 caliber cartridge guns, like a 458 Win Mag?

 

[Col. Batguano]

Answered my own question. Between 1:14 and 1:22.

So, I would surmise you would need a similar twist in a 45 ML'er to stabilize the same bullets. There is usually a good reason things are made as they are. They work that way!

 

[galamb]

sisiphunter - I would give it a try. If you know the exact measurement of your lands size the bullet .002 to .004 larger.

Your thought on 50 grains of powder sounds safe enough but I would add one thing to your equasion.

I would place a .060 thick over powder card (fiber wad) to protect the base of the bullet and ensure a gas seal.

You are essentially trying to cast your "own R.E.A.L. bullet but you probably don't have the capability of sizing it in various diameters to get a full gas seal" and depending on your rifling depth, without the wad, you could lose a great deal of your pressure (or distort the bullet base to the point where it would fly cock-eyed).

I have done what you are suggesting (shoot 38/40 bullets in my 40 cal - they are .401 diameter) but I "pre-engrave" them. I have a 3" piece of barrel that came off my 40 when the barrel was cut to length. I pre-lube the bullet then ram it through the barrel stub to "engrave it" - then shoot it with a .062 vegetable fiber card (wad) between it and the powder (which fills up the rifling nicely).

Now, my 40 has .012" rifling and it is 1:48, but 1:48 is a "slow twist" in a 40 (1:56 would be slow in a 45 - their is some math to figure that out that eludes me at the moment), and I have pretty good accuracy out to 50 yards (sub 2" groups).

That may not sound that far but it's 15 yards further than my "max bow range" which makes my 40 cal a "long range" squirrel rifle for those "white tailed squirrels" that we get here in Eastern Ontario...

 

[Dean2]

I too say have at it. Half the fun of owning these things is messing around with all the various combinations of bullet, ball, powder, patch, lube et al. Never limit your fun, do all the playing you can. Even if the experiment fails,it is a blast trying it.