Pyrodex “P” High Pressure Cylinder Over Rotation…..

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45D

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Tenring, I do
45D It sounds like you do the build and install yourself with the Cap Post and Action Shield. What do you charge for parts and labor .
I don't really do those as "stand alone" items. The cap post is a standard item but the action shield is an add on. I've always done a full service type tuning. These were added to the service as things went along. My reason for that came from looking at other gunsmith/tuner lists of services. It didn't make sense to me to do tuning by a "menu" offering. Some things are not worth doing if you don't other things . . . in other words, why change every other plug if you're tuning your car? So, a complete package made more sense. That's why I don't mind explaining "how to's". It's a doable thing for most folks.
The majority of my work is converting flat spring actions (Colt, Remington . . .) and upgrading Ruger 3 screw (which includes ROA's) actions. I still offer a " tuned flat spring " service. Here is a Colt action conversion.
20211006_151509.jpg


Mike
 

Tenring

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Very Nice, It makes sense to just do it all at one time.
 
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TrapperDude

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Tenring, I do


I don't really do those as "stand alone" items. The cap post is a standard item but the action shield is an add on. I've always done a full service type tuning. These were added to the service as things went along. My reason for that came from looking at other gunsmith/tuner lists of services. It didn't make sense to me to do tuning by a "menu" offering. Some things are not worth doing if you don't other things . . . in other words, why change every other plug if you're tuning your car? So, a complete package made more sense. That's why I don't mind explaining "how to's". It's a doable thing for most folks.
The majority of my work is converting flat spring actions (Colt, Remington . . .) and upgrading Ruger 3 screw (which includes ROA's) actions. I still offer a " tuned flat spring " service. Here is a Colt action conversion.
View attachment 98492

Mike
For these flat spring conversions, are you talking about the trigger return/bolt spring that's under the trigger guard? What does the process entail? Is it a new spring design?
 

45D

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The flat springs themselves are tuned for the setup. That means after the parts are "massaged as needed" and the main spring is adjusted for hammer draw weight, the trigger will likely need more pressure as the bolt spring would need to be lightened considerably. The bolt spring is typically extremely over tensioned. The combo springs have been made backwards pretty much as long as the reproductions have been made!! The trigger side should be the wide one and the bolt side narrow.

Mike
 

Tenring

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Excuse my ignorance but I figured the bolt spring would have some heavy tension on it to keep the cylinder from wanting to jump time or over rotate , I know someone is going to jump down my throat For guessing at this.
 

45D

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Lol!! No jumping !!!!!

The bolt only needs about 4 lbs of pressure (push down the bolt head of a Ruger S.A. sometime). Over rotation is taken care of by bolt head fit as well as timing. Adding a bolt block is a huge step as well. It keeps the bolt located horizontally so it can do its job of locking and unlocking the cyl.

Mike
 

jimhallam

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caps back then were made of what they called Foil Caps so I guess if they got snagged the cap would just give and disintegrate for the most part I would imagine, or mash flat..
A "foiled" cap is just that -- - the cap BODY is copper (as usual) but the makers put a thin FOIL over the cap composition. Some caps were "ribbed" to encourage splitting; the old ELEY listings talk about ground edge caps -- - part of the numbering system refers to this, e.g., F4 No 26 is a Foiled ground edge cap of #26 size -- - the common one for British percussion revolvers. Kynoch and other makers used their own codes.
 

45man

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The difference is when a modern revolver kicks the hammer it is just from the pressure on the inside of the primer. No gas escapes unless the primer is punctured. This actually did happen with some Colt SA's at one time when the firing pins were too sharp, the revolvers went full auto.
But gas escapes the BP guns, blowing caps to pieces and directly impinging on the hammer face.
Some caps ae worse then others but Rem and CCI seem to hang together better and fall out in one piece. I have seen C&B's with a broken spring unlock. The direction the cylinder rotates with recoil is determined by the twist direction. What is happening with an unlocked cylinder is gun torque is turning the gun while the cylinders inertia keeps it in place. The S&W turns backwards taking it away from the hand.
Check your spring part that holds the cylinder stop in place. They can crack.
 

45man

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I agree, very fine work and smart thinking from 45D. Thanks Mike.
If I may step ahead again to modern revolvers for a second because many of you also shoot them. The very worst thing you can do is to reduce the hammer spring weight as it affects accuracy a huge amount. I found when shooting IHMSA when I started to miss, the hammer spring took a set and needed changed so I install Wolfe over power in all my revolvers. I won almost every production revolver shoot I entered and took state too.
I never evaluated a C&B for what hammer spring tension will do and would be interested if anyone has made tests. Guys reduce to get a better trigger pull but it is not so as I get my SA's down to 1-1/2 # and one is 19 oz and use over power hammer springs.
The old Colt flat mainsprings seem to last forever and I would hesitate weakening them.
 

Tenring

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Maybe I should change the hammer spring’s on all my SA’s and the open tops.
 

45D

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45man, you may be right (I honestly don't know) but the competition guns I do are for Cowboy shooting. Some are getting along in years and have arthritic thumbs. Others are a little more into speed and in both situations, lighter is better. Its hard to be fast with an 8 or 9 lb. hammer draw but 1/2 that makes for a fast contender. Like you mention, the main CAN be heavy and you can still have a light trigger and dedicated target guns are typically set up that way, cowboy guns are set up directly opposite with typically a 2.5 - 3 lb trigger. However, I can definitely understand old and sore thumbs!! Lol That said, the casual shooter seems to like "casual" exercise meaning they like a smooth, easy working S.A. that won't break . . . basically a "Ruger" that looks like a '60 Army, '51 Navy, '58 REM. etc.
One caveat, you can lighten a main and still increase hammer speed to a degree which is what I do with what I call "Goons Kickass Mainspring ” lol!! It's not a separate part, just a " manipulation " of the main that's there. I have a solution for the s-l-o-w, coil mainspring as well (for all the Ruger folks!!).

Thanks for the compliment and the info!!!

Mike

PS Yes to the Jerry Kuhnhausen book! Jim Martin (my mentor and instructor) is responsible for much of the content in that book!!!
 

Tenring

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Gun Tramp this Book sounds like a wealth of SA knowledge, I would like to be able to find it.
 
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PS Yes to the Jerry Kuhnhausen book! Jim Martin (my mentor and instructor) is responsible for much of the content in that book!!!
In the book's Acknowledgements, Mr. Martin is described as "The last of the old time Colt S.A.A. qualified gunsmiths." I'll add that the 1851 and 1860 open-tops are illustrated in the book but only the lockwork sections are applicable to our pre-1865 needs; no arbor "stuff" is covered.
Gun Tramp this Book sounds like a wealth of SA knowledge, I would like to be able to find it.
They're not cheap; www.abebooks.com has used starting at $44. I should point out that this text is a shop manual, extremely detailed, not light reading. For if you really, really want to know!
 
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45D

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Gun Tramp you are correct. I got my "tuning" education from Jim but I learned about arbors from Mr. Larson Pettifogger's writings. Over the years I developed my own fix for the length and using a set screw located in the arbor to act as an adjustable bearing for the wedge.

Mike
 

Tenring

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Thank you for the info Gun Tramp sounds like an extensive amount of reading , like you said it’s a shop manual which is very detailed, I have seen bits and pieces of Larson Pettiffoger’s notes on tuning through other forums.He explains things in a simplified manner.
 

Spartan64

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I've used Blackhorn 209 in larger percussion revolvers without a problem (5gr charge of real BP under the 209) and that stuff is much hotter that Pyrodex. I suspect the problem is a combination of worn nipples and worn/too light springs. Worn nipples allow a larger jet of gas to blow back against the cap & hammer, cycling the pistol partially. Same thing can happen with a too-light mainspring. Needless to say enough pressure to cycle the action (even partially) is dangerous, you don't want a jet of hot gas and copper fragments pointed towards your face.
 

45man

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45man, you may be right (I honestly don't know) but the competition guns I do are for Cowboy shooting. Some are getting along in years and have arthritic thumbs. Others are a little more into speed and in both situations, lighter is better. Its hard to be fast with an 8 or 9 lb. hammer draw but 1/2 that makes for a fast contender. Like you mention, the main CAN be heavy and you can still have a light trigger and dedicated target guns are typically set up that way, cowboy guns are set up directly opposite with typically a 2.5 - 3 lb trigger. However, I can definitely understand old and sore thumbs!! Lol That said, the casual shooter seems to like "casual" exercise meaning they like a smooth, easy working S.A. that won't break . . . basically a "Ruger" that looks like a '60 Army, '51 Navy, '58 REM. etc.
One caveat, you can lighten a main and still increase hammer speed to a degree which is what I do with what I call "Goons Kickass Mainspring ” lol!! It's not a separate part, just a " manipulation " of the main that's there. I have a solution for the s-l-o-w, coil mainspring as well (for all the Ruger folks!!).

Thanks for the compliment and the info!!!

Mike

PS Yes to the Jerry Kuhnhausen book! Jim Martin (my mentor and instructor) is responsible for much of the content in that book!!!
Mike, you are correct about hammer speed as long as you can find a spring. A faster hammer is as good as a strong hit to the primer but my knowledge of it goes away with percussion caps. I figure they do not need the impact as the whole hammer face does the work instead of a pin.
I see your point of us old codgers needing (I am near 84) some ease with the hammer. C.A. would sure benefit.
An illustration I have for modern Ruger's and BFR's that use factory springs, they run 22 to 23# but weaken and shorten so I install Wolfe variable over power at 26# but for any revolver that takes rifle rounds, you need 28#. Caps might do OK with much weaker but I never experimented. I do have the BFR in 45-70 but use LP mag primers. The thing needs a cannon carriage! My best group at range was 5 shots in 2-1/2" at 500 yards. To hit steel I had to aim at a tree branch about 30 feet over the steel.
Then BP is easier to ignite so it is not as picky or a flinter would not work. There is plenty of fire from a cap.
I agree with you again and wish we lived close, I have my own range and we could make a lot of smoke!
 

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