Proof marks.

[JasonMag]

Just bought this Buss, any idea on the proof marks?

 

[Twice boom]

Just bought this Buss, any idea on the proof marks?

As close as I can tell from the picture. The top one is a Difinitive London proof mark since 1637.
The bottom one is a View Mark London since 1670.
Twice.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

They are not London proof and view marks of the Gunmaker's Company. I believe they are English private proofs . My guess is Birmingham.

 

[Twice boom]

They are not London proof and view marks of the Gunmaker's Company. I believe they are English private proofs . My guess is Birmingham.

Sorry I do not agree. The to Crown oveCP is 1635 London definitive proof mark
The Crown over V is the 1670 London View mark.

The same proof marks appear on my London made John Manton and son double 12 bore.
Ketland & co. Were London Gun makers going back to 1715.

Twice.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

No problem Twice but I believe ALL London Gunmakers Co. proofs have "GP" instead of "P".
The 1637 proof and views have a double intertwined type crown with "GP" and "V" as well as the outside of the stamp following the profile of the interior. The 1672 versions are the same except the outside of the stamp is oval. The 1702 versions have a single lined crown with "GP" and "V" inside an oval.
Many Birmingham makers prior to 1813 used marks like the ones pictured to imitate the London proofs except the crown was as pictured and the proof has "P" instead of "GP"
I believe there was a 5 mile stretch past the city limit that the Gunmaker's company had control of.

 

[Twice boom]

No problem Twice but I believe ALL London Gunmakers Co. proofs have "GP" instead of "P".
The 1637 proof and views have a double intertwined type crown with "GP" and "V" as well as the outside of the stamp following the profile of the interior. The 1672 versions are the same except the outside of the stamp is oval. The 1702 versions have a single lined crown with "GP" and "V" inside an oval.
Many Birmingham makers prior to 1813 used marks like the ones pictured to imitate the London proofs except the crown was as pictured and the proof has "P" instead of "GP"
I believe there was a 5 mile stretch past the city limit that the Gunmaker's company had control of.

The London definitive Mark is exactly as shown on the Buss, a Crown over either a CP or A GP

With Another Crown over a V.as the View Mark, Just like the proof marks shown in the picture.

I do not believe there was ever such a thing as private proof marks ,might be ,but if so there has to be marks from one of either of the two proof houses along with the supposed private ones. It’s the English Law ,.Nothing gets sold unless the gun is proved from one or the other house.

The Birmingham difinitve mark is Two crossed pikes with the letters BPC . The Veiw Mark is a Crown over BV ..

Twice.

 

[JV Puleo]

Those are Birmingham Private Proofs... not London.
Used before the opening of the B'ham proof house in 1813.

 

[Twice boom]

Those are Birmingham Private Proofs... not London.
Used before the opening of the B'ham proof house in 1813.

Nope. 1637 and 1670 London.

Maybe one of you kind Gentlemen can refer me to a link that I might see these private Birmingham proof Marks.
Thanks.
Twice.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Those are Birmingham Private Proofs... not London.
Used before the opening of the B'ham proof house in 1813.

Nope. 1637 and 1670 London.

Maybe one of you kind Gentlemen can refer me to a link that I might see these private Birmingham proof Marks.
Thanks.
Twice.

Look no further than the proofs on this thread

 

[Twice boom]

Those are Birmingham Private Proofs... not London.
Used before the opening of the B'ham proof house in 1813.

Nope. 1637 and 1670 London.

Maybe one of you kind Gentlemen can refer me to a link that I might see these private Birmingham proof Marks.
Thanks.
Twice.

Look no further than the proofs on this thread

Do us both a favor and do a Google on English Gun proof Marks. You'll get several sources that show what I been saying.
Thanks
Twice.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Twice, my last post to you as I have no need to be in contest with you. I do however want the original poster to get the truth. You may want to Google " Man at Arms Magazine Puleo" to find the other participant in this is the technical editor and is well grounded in English guns to the point some could refer to him as an expert. I concentrate my study to 18th century English firearms but I am a nobody and not worth a Google : )

 

[rabjr]

When JV Puleo speaks, one should really listen...

 

[Twice boom]

When JV Puleo speaks, one should really listen...

I much trust what I see rather than what someone says.

I'll stand by what I said, until proven wrong via some form of documentation .Those are the same proof marks that are on my 1847 John Manton and son..
And we know Birmingham had their proof house by then.
Good day.
Twice.

 

[Zonie]

I see a crown over P and a Crown over V.

I do not see a Crown over CP or over GP so IMO further debate about this is non-productive.

My reference also shows a Crown over crossed halberds indicating the private proof-mark of the British Board of Ordnance but of course that is neither here nor there either.

Perhaps someone knows the source of a Crown over P?

 

[Captjoel]

When you fella's come to a concensus regarding the british proofs, we'll all benefit from the knowledge! Welcome JasonMag to the forum! I'd sure love to see pictures of the rest of your blunderbus! From the slight view of it's side plate it must be a beauty! Joel

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Perhaps someone knows the source of a Crown over P?

Not sure what you mean by source. The source if I understand your question were the Birmingham builders who designed the stamp apparently to imitate the London proofs.
Here is a picture of Birmingham proofs on a Thomas Richards fowling piece along with his maker's mark.

Here is a partial list of English proofs to at least help out the OP with the correct information.

 

[Twice boom]

Perhaps someone knows the source of a Crown over P?

Not sure what you mean by source. The source if I understand your question were the Birmingham builders who designed the stamp apparently to imitate the London proofs.
Here is a picture of Birmingham proofs on a Thomas Richards fowling piece along with his maker's mark.

Here is a partial list of English proofs to at least help out the OP with the correct information.

I stand corrected.
Thanks for taking the time.
Twice.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Would have been sooner but last night I was responding to this thread from my android phone which I have not mastered. :redface:

 

[Twice boom]

Would have been sooner but last night I was responding to this thread from my android phone which I have not mastered. :redface:

Always good to learn something new , better late than never.

Thanks.
Twice.

 

[JV Puleo]

Gentlemen...

London Proofs are "crown over GP" and "crown over V"

Birmingham private proofs "crown over P" and "crown over V" These are also seen as just the "P" and the "V". No one knows when this started or who operated the private proof house but it probably began in the first quarter of the 18th century and the proof house was probably owned by the Galtons.

Government Ordnance proofs: "crown over GR" and a broad arrow as well as "crown over crossed scepters"

Government private proofs: two strikes of the "crown over crossed scepters" mark. These are proofs done for the civilian gun trade in the government proof house. The fee was 3p, of which the proofmaster kept 1p. At the end of the year the money was used to give a banquet for the proof house workers.

In all cases, "V" is the "viewed" mark - essentially a visual inspection for obvious flaws and for dimensional accuracy. The "P" mark is for "proved" i.e. fired with a proof charge. This is exactly the same system used in the US - except that we generally used an eagle rather than a crown or nothing at all.

There is an excellent article on this subject in the last issue of Classic Arms (an English magazine) by Brian Godwin and John Evans. I met with Brian and John about this about a year ago and we discovered that we had arrived at exactly the same conclusions at the same time. You will frequently see the Ordnance Private proofs described as "Ketland's proof mark." This is simply wrong and is a myth that was generated back in the 1920s through the misreading of some earlier sources.