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Probably a swedish flintlock rifle.

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Anders L

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I recently bought a flintlock rifle from a friend. Its dated to the middle of the 18th C. It has all the original parts remaining. The birchwood has been given a less attractive finish. All fittings are made of iron. The tip of the rifle and the ramrod is reinforced with horn.

Length 127 cm, caliber 15mm.

We believe this is a all swedish made rifle but too make sure we wanted to ask international viewers. What do you think? There is a smith stamp on the lock, two letters. Probably an "A" followed by perhaps a B.

img_9941.jpg


More pics here: http://kurage.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/militariamassan-2010-exit-the-russian-enter-the-swede/
 
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Very, very cool. :thumbsup: I wonder if the lock on the darker wood rifle is the original though. It doesn't seem to fit the mortise and the sideplate is gone.
 
Bäste herr Lindqvist - I'm not sure if you are asking us, or telling us. Having read your web-site - in which you have already stated that it is a Swedish flintlock musket dating from about 1750 in very good condition - and goes on to say - that it is completely intact except for a dent in the stock. All parts are original and it has an octagonal breech to round barrel. It then calls it a 'rifle' - somewhat confusing, as it cannot be a musket AND a rifle. It has iron fittings and a patch box, with a horn forend and ramrod tip. It has a birch stock and an overall length about 127 cm, with 15mm calibre.

IMO this is a comparatively short hunting rifle of unknown make, either Russian or Swedish. The very plainness makes it attractive to me, anyhow.

The birch stock is a bit of a giveaway for a Scandinavian or Russian made firearm. Birch is not a common stock material outside Scandinavia and Tzarist Russia. It also has the 'look' of a Scandinavian or Russian firearm of the period. It is very unlikely that anybody would fake such a thing, as Scandinavian or Russian firearms are far less well-known outside their respective homelands.

On the other hand, none of us are likely to know as much about Scandinavian or Russian arms of this period as the other two experts you have asked - Max Sjoberg and Jorgen Martinsson at Probus Auktionsverk, both world-famous experts in this field.

However, reading on, it appears to me that you have already done a deal with a Russian.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund
 
Thank you for your response.

The other flintlock on my webpage does not have its original lock at all. Its a really crude work that I got cheap. I have to make a new sideplate and renovate the most parts.

Since I´m no expert myself, nor my friends I want to se what you other enthusiasts have to say. The guys at Probus auctions have not examined this rifle, only the french/russian musket that I sold. You never know if new information shows up here. I have looked through a couple of swedish books and haven´t found anything.

I did not know that birch was typical for the scandinavian region and russia since birch is a tree that grows many parts of europe, even in Norh America. Is birch unusual on american original muzzleloaders?
 
Sir, the real experts [and there are many here who build some wondrous rifles and guns] will be along in a while when they wake up. However, from my input, and poor knowledge of Scandinavia [mainly Finland where I spent much of my youth, and Skane where my ancestors come from] birch was not uncommon stock material in Scandinavia BECAUSE it is so common. In those countries where walnut is more prevalent, then THAT is the wood of choice, as it is both more beautiful to look at as well as somewhat denser and more resilient. Beech runs it a close second and many Swedish and Finnish-made arms used it.

However, the use of birch on American-built guns of that period must be considered unusual, even with my scant knowledge of the subject. My only American flintlock from around that timescale was a very nice gun made by Peter Gonter that had a very dense walnut stock. I can only hope that the guy who stole it from my demonstration stand at a gun show will have it blow up in his face some day.

My $.02

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund
 
Aha, Skåne, I see. That explains some of your knowledge. A very small part of me is from that part of sweden, my grandmother father was "skåning".

I guess that walnut always is first choice, I belive that many stockmakers imported walnut for better weapons.

Im sorry to hear about your loss of your gun. People stealing antiques are the worst kind och thieves. :cursing:
 
I'm just wondering... The lock looks very military from the 1750's & onwards - and due to the lacking dog catch, probably not Swedish. The barrel's ring at the muzzle would indicate that this is a civilian barrel, but the ring could have been added later. The stock is most definitely not carved in the 1750's, but at least 50 years later - probably more.
I believe this is an assembled gun, probably from some time between 1800 & 1850.

Trond
 
I would say that dog catch is not rule on swedish civil rifles. The gun is really to small and bears no resembles with a military musket. The barrel shows no markings or other signs that indicate such a thing.

All parts has been recoginzed as orginal parts by experts.

The stock is covered with some kind of shiny lacquer which make it look kinda wierd and the front end of the stock has a period repair. The design of butt is typical 18th C like the design of the ironfurniture.

But still, we dont know if its swedish.
 
I agree that the dog catch mainly was a military feature in Sweden, but the lock seems fairly obviously to be a military lock. Through my 50 years of collecting, I can not remember ever to have seen a civilian lock marked like this.

With one exception the lock is remarkably like the Kronborg locks from the second half of the 18. century. They marked the lock at the same place in the same way. But the shape of the leaf on the spring is somewhat different from any of the Kronborg muskets I have. The spring could, of course, be of a slightly later date, that explaining the difference.

Click the picture of the two locks on this page and you'll se what I mean Kronborg M1774.
 
That sure was interesting, it really looks like my lock, do you have any closeups images of these locks? Mesurements could be helpful as well.

A lot of things can happen over 200 years or so, I can deny that. Weapons that are used have to be repaired and of course some parts in lock are perhaps changed.
 
023.jpg

024.jpg


The first lock is from a M1774, the second from a M1791. My guess is that the lock is from the end of that period due to the size of the screws - and that it probably is Danish.

The Danes usually used beech, as this seems to be birch, it most probably is a Norwegian or Swedish gun, I would actually tend to believe it is Norwegian due to the Danish lock and the ring at the muzzle.

According to a posting earlier in the thread, it seems you've been in contact with Max & Jörgen at Probus? They are good, really good! If they have dated this thing, they probably are right - they usually are.

But the carving of the stock is in my book not a late 18. or early 19. century carving. The grooves along the ramrod went out of fashion in the 1750s and usually also were accompanied with leaf patterns around the lock etc. Also - fitting a late 18. century lock into a older stock makes no sense.

At the turn over the century, the M1774 would have been 26 years or less old and the M1891 9 years old or less. How could a civilian get hold of an almost "brand new" lock from the military? He could not! The more I think about this gun - the newer it gets.

The quality of the workmanship on the stock is sloppy, was it even meant to be a shooter? How is the ignition hole placed in the flash pan?

The old Danish muskets were sold off from the 1850's and onwards in Norway. I don't know when the Danes sold off theirs, but most of the old Danish stuff had been sent to Norway after the turn of the century.

Trond
 
Your knowledge is truly great among these things. :bow:

Thank you for your pics and your sharing. Its plausible that it is a danish lock in the hands of a lesser gunmaker, as you say the handcraft on the stock is kind of sloppy. Perhaps as you say at the end of the 18th C with a military lock. It could be as you say a period assemble.

Do you know de mesureaments on these danish locks? If it is exactly the same size it would be easier to deside.
 
There was little light wen I measured, but the lock plates seem to be 17-18 cm long.

Trond
 
I mesasured the lockplate and it is 15 cm. Still it looks very similar but it is smaller than the lock you mentioned. Are there military rifle versions with smaller locks like draagon-carbines or similar?
 
I might have measured wrong - or it might be a pistol lock. Here are a couple of M1772s and M1740s. The locks are very like the musket locks:

P1020081-1.jpg


Again, the more I see/think about this gun, the more I'm getting pretty certain that it is way less than 100 years old - and really rather uninteresting.

Trond
 
Yep, really looks like these locks. :thumbsup:

Most important for me was to get something to use in reenactment and to shoot with. Since there is no money spent on it, the value is less important. You got a other ambitions with your collection, I shoot all my rifles and I really enjoy the look of this rifle. :grin:
 
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