Priming the pan first

[tenngun]

We all pick and choose acceptable risk. No mater what we do the grim reaper will win in the end.
I blow down the barrel ‘tween shots, trek alone and enjoy my pipe.
Chances are you will never have a problem.ill just be shooting a few second slower living my acceptable risk
No ones trying to tell you what to do,However you did ask us to opine on the subject.

 

[user 36911]

A good example of why I never go to a range to shoot.

 

[mooman76]

I also think it was stupid for two groups to stand on line and shoot at each other. It kind of bogles the mind, what were they thinking? I don't have proof but get the feeling it was thought to be cowardly to hide and shoot.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Not to veer off topic but consider how you would stop 30k men coming to take your towns, industry, resources, and your women, assuming you had 30k men of your own. Your options are limited unless you were willing to give up what it is they were coming for. It was the only way to fight if you wanted to keep anything at all. It was the perfect and only defense from a marauding army, that was willing to take casualties themselves, that must be met and stopped before it left you with nothing. You must also quickly move to offense. You had to maneuver, sans mechanization, to cut their supply, harass, etc while protecting your own supply and industrial centers... So, there you are, in no time at all, fighting just like they did, like it or not.

That said, they strongly preferred it if you just dropped the keys and fled in terror.

Kind of sounds like what's going on now around the country

 

[Bob McBride]

But that’s not a Pedersoli.....

You got me there. But I would think even a Pedersoli would spark if it slipped at half cock. I’m not certain, but I imagine it would. Their big ones are said to be pretty decent locks.

 

[Grenadier1758]

As a reenactor, I fire a lot of blank rounds. Before our muskets are taken to the field, we conduct safety checks on the function of the half cock notch and safety items such as a hammer stall (leather cover for the frizzen) and a flash guard. The musket is checked for a load by dropping a ramrod down the barrel to hear the rod tip ring against the face of the breech. The blanks will be primed first and the remaining powder poured down the barrel. No ramming of the paper and no hands over the muzzle. Then we are ready to fire.

My unit also will participate in several live fire events where the cartridges are loaded with ball. All priming is done from a separate flask and except for the volley fire situations, only one musket is primed.

While we strive to do everything as historically correct as possible, we consider safety to be the top priority when firing.

So, yes, from a historically correct perspective, priming first with a paper cartridge is the order for loading, priming first when loaded a cartridge and ball is not something we would recommend doing. Most ranges will allow loading at loading bench, but priming is done on the firing line just prior to taking aim to fire.

 

[Bob McBride]

I also think it was stupid for two groups to stand on line and shoot at each other. It kind of bogles the mind, what were they thinking? I don't have proof but get the feeling it was thought to be cowardly to hide and shoot.

Old country boy over here so I hope you forgive me not following. You have an army marching to take a town. Another army doesn’t want that town taken and has decided to stop them on the road somewhere. Army #2 blocks the way. They spread out with artillery on their flanks and in their rear. No time for trenches. No time for barricades. Your scouts just found Army #1 a few hours ago. Army #1 decides they will take the town regardless of your position. What other possible outcome is there? Falling back to the town where you had a defensible position was a death sentence. The other army would lay siege and you were toast. There literally was no other way.

We do the exact same thing today. Move into range, maneuver and engage, and hope your halfcock notch holds.

 

[tenngun]

I also think it was stupid for two groups to stand on line and shoot at each other. It kind of bogles the mind, what were they thinking? I don't have proof but get the feeling it was thought to be cowardly to hide and shoot.

Military simulation games got real popular in the 60s and 70s. Video games are more about graphics and short control.
If you look seriously at smoothbores limitations cost and cost of fielding and training an army then, nit picky things like tax revenues it starts to make sense.
In the American woods Indians used the cover and forest to good effect. In open areas, Europe or costal colonies there wasn’t that forest to use. And that made a big difference.
Skirmishers could slow down an advancing in line force, but couldn’t stop them. At best they could harass them.
It seems silly from a time of five hundred yard rifles, instant communication indirect fire artillery and air control, but if you look at the realities of the guns,the communication, line of sight artillery, inability to reconnoiter the enemy except by sight from horses back out of gun, n range no real time reports the line formation makes a ton of sense. When it was invented older looser formations fell apart before it

 

[Greg Blackburn]

I also think it was stupid for two groups to stand on line and shoot at each other. It kind of bogles the mind, what were they thinking? I don't have proof but get the feeling it was thought to be cowardly to hide and shoot.

It is cowardly to hide and shoot. LOL

I would not prime the pan first. When I was younger, I used to risk my life pretty often, doing all manner of dangerous things, but now that I'm older and somewhat surprised I am still alive, I would not recommend taking unnecessary risks.

 

[Bob McBride]

Military simulation games got real popular in the 60s and 70s. Video games are more about graphics and short control.
If you look seriously at smoothbores limitations cost and cost of fielding and training an army then, nit picky things like tax revenues it starts to make sense.
In the American woods Indians used the cover and forest to good effect. In open areas, Europe or costal colonies there wasn’t that forest to use. And that made a big difference.
Skirmishers could slow down an advancing in line force, but couldn’t stop them. At best they could harass them.
It seems silly from a time of five hundred yard rifles, instant communication indirect fire artillery and air control, but if you look at the realities of the guns,the communication, line of sight artillery, inability to reconnoiter the enemy except by sight from horses back out of gun, n range no real time reports the line formation makes a ton of sense. When it was invented older looser formations fell apart before it

Thats exactly right. The tactic of a large moving column attacked by skirmishers was to move their own skirmishers out of the line to engage and the Army either maneuvered to crush the skirmishers or simply carried on uninhibited.

 

[Leadball loader]

Enjoying shooting historic guns safely should be the path we all follow. In todays environment the sport does not need negative incidents making the news.
Historic correct methods are not always best methods so we should compromise our actions to err on the safe side. I will !!!!
LBL

 

[Notchy Bob]

Wow! Three pages of comments in one day!

Gavin, please re-read Grenadier's post, #46. That's what you need to know.

I am not a reenactor, but I thought for a time I might volunteer at the Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine, Florida. On certain days, they have living history volunteers dressed as circa 1740 Spanish Marines performing musket drills with volley fire, as well as cannon drills with blank loads. They have a one-day "School of the Soldier" and a two-day "Cannon School," which are required for volunteers participating in the shooting activities. One thing to keep in mind is that all of this, training, living history, and shooting, is sponsored by the National Park Service (NPS). You can bet all procedures were carefully vetted.

With the musket firing, every participant is required to have a flash guard and a leather hammerstall (frizzen cover) installed on his firelock. The half-cock notch is the musket's "safety," and proper function is verified before every drill or demonstration by placing the lock at half-cock and suspending the musket by the trigger on your finger. Considering these military muskets (I have a Charleville) weigh in excess of ten pounds, the "trigger pull" at half cock is pretty stout. We would also "ping" the metal ramrod against the face of the breech plug to verify the bore was unloaded and clear.

The musket drill was basically a sequence of commands. There is no need to go through all of that, but the pertinent details are that the hammer stall is in place and the gun is at half cock when the paper cartridge is opened. You prime the pan from the cartridge and close the pan. With the musket butt placed on the ground and the gun leaning so the muzzle is forward, not in your face (or anyone else's), you pour in the powder, crumple the paper cartridge to use as wadding, then ram the wadding down, using only your thumb and forefinger on the ramrod, which is then quickly removed and replaced in the gun. You remove the hammerstall and bring the lock to full cock when commanded to do so. Even after the shot, there is a procedure to follow. Considerable time elapses between volleys, so there is little chance of a latent spark or "cook off."

So, as sanctioned by the NPS, you prime from the cartridge before loading the main charge, but with the lock at a secure half cock and with a frizzen cover in place, so even if the cock drops unintentionally, there will be no spark. At no point is the muzzle pointed anywhere near your person or your face. The cartridge paper is used for wadding, which requires ramming, but the ramrod is manipulated only with the thumb and forefinger, and ramming and extraction of the rod is done quickly. There is a specific sequence of commands for replacing the ramrod in its place, minimizing the possibility of a "shot" ramrod. There are no opposing lines of fire at the Castillo, and no projectiles.

Following the musket drill, risk of accidental discharge is minimized, even with priming before loading. However, you do not deviate from the drill... You follow every step, in correct sequence.

For the record, I have shot paper cartridges loaded with ball, on my own, but I prime after loading, from a priming flask.

Notchy Bob

 

[Col. Batguano]

Sorry, but they were stupid. Standing face to face and shooting at each other is a brainless way to fight. A lot of death for a dumb way to fight. Adding an unsafe way to load doesn't help.

Who would copy from that?

How true. Doing stupid stuff is not a modern invention made only for You Tube, and Jackass videos.

 

[jae]

When a private was issued his Kings firelock (Brown Bess ) he was taught to clean his firearm ,but was not allowed to disassemble it at the risk of a flogging if caught. So when most of these guns
had a 16 pound trigger pull and a half cock knotch you could chip a tooth on priming first was fairly safe.
To-day the first thing purchasers of a new gun wants is to gunsmith it to a 2-3 pound trigger and that is where the unsafe part comes in.
So if you think you`re PC priming your pan first with a gun you`ve modified the trigger on ,you would`nt have lasted long in any army of the time and to-day you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you.
If you keep a frizzen stall on until the gun is pointed down range and you`re ready to fire, I think would be a good compromise.

















Kings

 

[Tumbledown]

At my club (and I assume many ranges), a primed gun is considered ready to fire. We don't prime until we go up to the firing line.

If you're out by yourself, do as you pleaee.

 

[Gavinm28]

Damn internet people like to argue. I'll see about making a hammer stall. Thanks for your input (only if you actually input something and didn't start arguments about stupid ****... you know who you are).

 

[JamesT]

"Don't go off half cocked."

Ever heard that saying?

 

[toot]

It's true that they primed the pan first back in the day.

The question that you have to ask yourself is if you wish to be authentic AND risk your life or limb while doing it?

As a side note; a friend of mine took a blank charge to his face during a civil war reenactment. Another reenactor took a fall (pretending to be shot) with his LOADED rifle.

The reenactor taking the fall discharged his rifle in my friend's face. The offending party ran off, never to be found again when this happened.

My friend was in the hospital for about a week. He had a nasty scar on the left cheek that was about 4 inches long and 1 1/2 inches wide.

That's what a blast from a loaded musket will do to your face.

I thought that he asked a question about priming the pan, not a civil war musket that takes a musket cap that is always put on last before firing. how did your friend get a blast to the face loading a cap lock musket? if indeed it some how went off it should have only burnt his hand.

 

[toot]

I think I'll stick to my current loading method. I get that the lock can have an error, but it seems pretty unlikely. It's also worth mentioning that I shoot a pedersoli, so I doubt it will have a lock-related issue. I'll definitely heed your advice on my rifle though, and prime it last. I'll be sure to tell you if I die.

if you prime last means that you will have to carry another device with priming powder in it.

 

[toot]

I have been using paper cartridges for 65 yrs. and will continue to do so, ok? to each his own.