Priming the pan first

[Bob McBride]

Gavin.......No, it was stupid for any time. Just because it was done doesn't make it the best method. Did they fight the Indians that way too?

Don't make assumptions about what I understand.

Hey OldMtnMan, the ‘best way to fight’ wasn’t on the table. The attacking army set the rules and boy was line of battle a good way to attack.

 

[Carbon 6]

I've recently been hearing a lot of people say that priming the pan first is seriously unsafe,

So is driving with one hand on the wheel, and don't even get me started on cellphones.

Will your gun throw sparks from the half cock position if the sear were to break ? Mine won't. so the risk is almost non-existent.

 

[SDSmlf]

Bad habit to have at some ranges. Will get you tossed for a safety violation.

As far as a sear or tumbler notch failures, I have see a number of them. Always a few minutes of disbelief when it happens, usually at an unexpected and odd moment. There is a discussion right now in the percussion sub forum on a failed sear. Broken sear nose-.50 cal T/C Hawken

Interesting you mentioned you have a Pedersoli. I have a Pedersoli that when knew had an issue similar to what @Bob McBride mentioned. Not enough wood was removed from the mortise and it interfered with the lock to point that the sear wouldn’t catch or stay engaged when you bumped the stock.

And as long as you are into being historically correct, have seen a reference from a military manual instructing the soldiers to place a number of lead balls in the mouths for quicker reloading. Just had to place their mouth over the bore..... you should probably practice with only one or two balls first.

 

[Gavinm28]

Bad habit to have at some ranges. Will get you tossed for a safety violation.

As far as a sear or tumbler notch failures, I have see a number of them. Always a few minutes of disbelief when it happens, usually at an unexpected and odd moment. There is a discussion right now in the percussion sub forum on a failed sear. Broken sear nose-.50 cal T/C Hawken

Interesting you mentioned you have a Pedersoli. I have a Pedersoli that when knew had an issue similar to what @Bob McBride mentioned. Not enough wood was removed from the mortise and it interfered with the lock to point that the sear wouldn’t catch or stay engaged when you bumped the stock.

And as long as you are into being historically correct, have seen a reference from a military manual instructing the soldiers to place a number of lead balls in the mouths for quicker reloading. Just had to place their mouth over the bore..... you should probably practice with only one or two balls first.

Ha, thanks for the input. I've taken this musket out before, and I've had no lock related issues. I would for sure prime last if it did. I've tested the half cock position, and I'm pretty sure that, as carbon said, it doesn't gather enough speed to make sparks. Yeah, I know the bite the bullet loading technique. Unfortunately I think lead poisoning is a much higher probability than a faulty lock. I'll stay as historically accurate as possible without seriously risking my safety. I don't see the lock as a serious risk.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Do some research. It was quite the most effective way of fighting for the time period. Anyone who says that "people were so much [dumber/smarter/other adjective] back then compared to now" doesn't have a very good understanding of history. They knew what worked for their times, and people like you criticize them because it wouldn't work for our times.

I am not going to criticize anyone, just present my thoughts. When in war, one has to do what he has to do to save his butt. When one is having fun, he may wish to do as he pleases . My shooting pleasure is based on safety, and I would never, and I say never prime first. Are you going to trust your body from harm with the gun's half cock?
Flintlocklar

 

[Gavinm28]

I am not going to criticize anyone, just present my thoughts. When in war, one has to do what he has to do to save his butt. When one is having fun, he may wish to do as he pleases . My shooting pleasure is based on safety, and I would never, and I say never prime first. Are you going to trust your body from harm with the gun's half cock?
Flintlocklar

Yeah, a lot of muzzleloading shooting, even for fun, depends on one's trust in the gun. Trust that the ball was able to be rammed down all the way, or the barrel will explode from pressure. Trust that there isn't an ember sitting at the bottom of the barrel. Trust in the lock. I see most of them as irrational anxieties from the primitive mechanism, but since they have happened before I am aware of all of them. Sparks aren't generated from the half cock position, and I have tested the reliability of this lock, and it's very reliable. I'll be sure to take precaution while loading, but I'm not going to stop using the procedure altogether just because of the slim-to-none possibility of something going wrong.

 

[Bob McBride]

My Chambers locks and big martial locks will sure spark from half cock and locks developing a fault is not rare, but whatever you do, be careful, we’re just trying to give you something to think about.

Any good lock will spark just dandy from half cock.

 

[Gavinm28]

My Chambers locks and big martial locks will sure spark from half cock and locks developing a fault is not rare, but whatever you do, be careful, we’re just trying to give you something to think about.

Any good lock will spark just dandy from half cock.

Thanks, as I've said I very loosely grip the ramrod and angle the barrel away from me in case it does happen. I'll make sure to be aware of it, but it seems incredibly unlikely

 

[Bob McBride]

My buddy broke his half cock notch a few years ago knapping his flint. No cheapo lock either. I made a short video of one of my Chamber's Late Ketlands sparking from half cock. Just FYI.

SPARKING FROM HALF COCK

 

[SDSmlf]

My buddy broke his half cock notch a few years ago knapping his flint. No cheapo lock either. I made a short video of one of my Chamber's Late Ketlands sparking from half cock. Just FYI.

SPARKING FROM HALF COCK

But that’s not a Pedersoli.....

 

[Gavinm28]

I get what he's saying though. I give the trigger a pull at half cock in between shots to make sure everything's good. Does this actually have a negative effect on anything?

 

[SDSmlf]

I get what he's saying though. I give the trigger a pull at half cock in between shots to make sure everything's good. Does this actually have a negative effect on anything?

Other than stressing the sear and the tumbler half cock notch, probably not much..... depends on how hard you pull.

 

[Gavinm28]

Assuming you don't pull hard enough to break the notch, can you assure that the half cock position is working with a trigger pull? Or could the sear become loose regardless

 

[Archer 756]

Lets remember that ALL safety devises fail at some time, the only safety devise that should never fail is YOU

 

[user 36911]

Ok, i'm back from taking the dog for a hike in the mountains. I don't want to get into military tactics back then. It reminds too much of the 4F for a main load thread.

Gavin.........You want to be historically accurate. You would have to be facing the enemy to take the chance you're taking. As it is, you're just shooting for fun and should be thinking about safety more.

I'm all for doing something PC but the whole deal needs to be done to be accurate. You're just doing a small part of it.

 

[Gavinm28]

Ok, i'm back from taking the dog for a hike in the mountains. I don't want to get into military tactics back then. It reminds too much of the 4F for a main load thread.

Gavin.........You want to be historically accurate. You would have to be facing the enemy to take the chance you're taking. As it is, you're just shooting for fun and should be thinking about safety more.

I'm all for doing something PC but the whole deal needs to be done to be accurate. You're just doing a small part of it.

Please see the many times on this thread where I mention that I don't think of it as much of a risk. Many people load with paper cartridges using standard military procedure and don't have an issue (on YouTube: duelist1954, britishmuzzleloaders, capandball, etc.) . I appreciate the people on this thread who pointed out what can cause a malfunction and things to be aware of, but I really don't see it as a reason to stop loading that way. If I noticed any problem with the lock I'd stop immediately, but the musket has been reliable with no issues so far.

 

[tenngun]

Yeah I just enjoy shooting in historically accurate ways, and although civilians loaded differently I like the speed of paper cartridges. The risk seems minimal, so I'll keep priming from the cartridge.

Folks tend to shoot according to deliberate shooting methods. We have ample loading manuals that tell us to prime last. We have ample loading manuals that tell us to use a measure.
A guy in a battle just didn’t have time. Even today military has to reign hell on an enemy and because of that we have friendly fire deaths and death while training.
I’ve loaded more than one primed gun. I bet most of us on this forum that have shot muskets and maybe a fusil or two have given it a try.
Most of the life of a soldier and his musket was unloaded. He may load on guard duty but that could be done carefully, under no stress.
Please note they thought it a dangerous practice then, unavoidable due to the needs of the musket.
Rifleman corps that operated under less time stress were taught often to prime separately. Like wise when cap guns came along the cap was placed on a loaded gun, even though you might have saved some seconds priming right after shooting.
I’ve done some dangerous things, we sometimes played a bit too hard at ‘voos, drank a might too deep. My luck never ran out.
But I work in a trauma unit taking care of people who rolled the dice one too many times.
Do you really need a battlefield expedient to enjoy your gun?

 

[Gavinm28]

Folks tend to shoot according to deliberate shooting methods. We have ample loading manuals that tell us to prime last. We have ample loading manuals that tell us to use a measure.
A guy in a battle just didn’t have time. Even today military has to reign hell on an enemy and because of that we have friendly fire deaths and death while training.
I’ve loaded more than one primed gun. I bet most of us on this forum that have shot muskets and maybe a fusil or two have given it a try.
Most of the life of a soldier and his musket was unloaded. He may load on guard duty but that could be done carefully, under no stress.
Please note they thought it a dangerous practice then, unavoidable due to the needs of the musket.
Rifleman corps that operated under less time stress were taught often to prime separately. Like wise when cap guns came along the cap was placed on a loaded gun, even though you might have saved some seconds priming right after shooting.
I’ve done some dangerous things, we sometimes played a bit too hard at ‘voos, drank a might too deep. My luck never ran out.
But I work in a trauma unit taking care of people who rolled the dice one too many times.
Do you really need a battlefield expedient to enjoy your gun?

Dice roll? If there were a die with enough sides to reflect the odds of a malfunction in this circumstance, I'm pretty sure it would be too close to a sphere to stop rolling. I'm shooting a military model gun, and I enjoy loading it in a military fashion. I don't want this to be a controversial topic, but I think the risk is very slim. Perhaps I will buy a frizzen stall, just in case

 

[SDSmlf]

Assuming you don't pull hard enough to break the notch, can you assure that the half cock position is working with a trigger pull? Or could the sear become loose regardless

Problem is when one of those small pieces of cast metal fail without warning. The half cock position is not considered a safety in any gun, old or contemporary. If it fails at the inopportune time the hammer or cock will fall and the gun can fire.

I have owned three muzzleloaders that had sear issues. The one from interference from the stock and two with broken sears. I discovered one because of an ‘accidental discharge’ in my basement shop. It was a percussion gun and had no charge in the barrel, but the cap went off when I wasn’t expecting it. I was checking cap fit and clearance on an empty gun when I bumped the hammer and it went boom. Amazing how loud a cap is in the basement when unexpected. Confirmed the tumbler half cock notch was chipped. Seemed to hold when you pull the trigger, but not when you bumped the gun or the hammer.

But the risk is low.....

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I'll be sure to take precaution while loading, but I'm not going to stop using the procedure altogether just because of the slim-to-none possibility of something going wrong.

Again, no criticism:
Mur·phy's Law
/ˌmərfēz ˈlô/
noun
A supposed law of nature, expressed in various humorous popular sayings, to the effect that anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
Flintlocklar