Pressure difference betwen Swiss and Goex

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Thekingd93

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Lyman BP manual lists load data for goex but not swiss. Swiss seems to be hotter than goex from what I've read. Been using 70 grains of Swiss 3F in my .50 cal hawken with patched round ball. It does kick a bit with that load but I can't imagine I'm coming anywhere near maximum pressure with that load even Swiss being hotter than goex. Im still new to Black Powder. I like to target shoot with my hunting loads just to keep everything the same.
 

yonderin

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I've no great experience with shooting different manufacturers but grade of powder would be the decider on pressure to me. Different manufacturers can make their claims to performance.

Unless the same ballistic lab carried out tests on different powders it's kind of comparing different kinds of apples to one another. You say one is sweeter than another and somebody else says it's the other way around.

Same grade between different manufacturers probably isn't that different so, to me, load data can probably be safely interchanged.
 

Grenadier1758

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@Thekingd93 The Lyman Manual was written in the 1970's and 1980's. Some of the powder used in the testing is no longer manufactured. Swiss powder and Olde Eynsford powders weren't on the market. Then there is the comings and goings of the synthetic black powders. No pressure information on those powders as well.

A pressure comparison would be beneficial, but not likely.
 

Eterry

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I've had my Lyman Manual for decades, have poured thru every page at least twice.
What I enjoy is the ballistic and trajectory tables. That and the testing of ffg vs fffg.

Your most accurate load usually is lighter than what most hunt with. I truly think we load much hotter loads than they did 175 years ago, but have no proof.
 

Rifleman1776

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There is a difference. Swiss is hotter but seems to perform very well in most rifles and for most shooters. However, in one of my rifles I cannot get anything resembling a group compared to Goex. I have some experience in this game but this situation has me bumfuzzled.
 

rodwha

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@Thekingd93 The Lyman Manual was written in the 1970's and 1980's. Some of the powder used in the testing is no longer manufactured. Swiss powder and Olde Eynsford powders weren't on the market. Then there is the comings and goings of the synthetic black powders. No pressure information on those powders as well.

A pressure comparison would be beneficial, but not likely.
Swiss has been around a long, long time:

“The Aubonne Black Powder Mill (Swiss Black Powder Factory) was founded in 1853.”

The powder just hasn’t been as popular as it’s much more expensive and mostly match shooters use it.
 

Barry Strickland

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In testing with my machine rest with a chronograph Goex creates the lowest velocity, Swiss is higher velocity and Old Eynsford is the highest velocity. OE leaves the most residue and has the highest extreme spread of velocity. Swiss has the lowest extreme spread. All powders will produce similar groups at 25 yards as long as the patch thickness is correct and also ball size. The powder charge will vary with the powder used.
I now have about 1800 shots fired with the machine rest and it has been very interesting, eye opening and it looks like it will never end. This is using pistol barrels of 36, 40 and 45 caliber. There are so many possible variations of components it is mind boggling.
The machine rest weighs 13 pounds and is adjustable in vertical and horizontal sighting. The barrel block rolls up for loading on large pillow blocks.
P1090459.JPG
 

dave951

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In testing with my machine rest with a chronograph Goex creates the lowest velocity, Swiss is higher velocity and Old Eynsford is the highest velocity. OE leaves the most residue and has the highest extreme spread of velocity. Swiss has the lowest extreme spread. All powders will produce similar groups at 25 yards as long as the patch thickness is correct and also ball size. The powder charge will vary with the powder used.
I now have about 1800 shots fired with the machine rest and it has been very interesting, eye opening and it looks like it will never end. This is using pistol barrels of 36, 40 and 45 caliber. There are so many possible variations of components it is mind boggling.
The machine rest weighs 13 pounds and is adjustable in vertical and horizontal sighting. The barrel block rolls up for loading on large pillow blocks. View attachment 92704
Mind trying that again with a rifle length barrel? Other tests I've read say that OE is between Swiss and Goex for velocity consistency. Of the three powders, my best accuracy is a tie between Swiss and OE. Fouling seems comparable between the two.
 

rodwha

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The Aubonne Powder Mill may have been around for a long time, but Swiss brand black powder was not in general distribution when Lyman did the testing for the manuals.
I should have kept reading:

“The Swiss Technical Services Association (Swiss TS/TUV) awarded the plant ISO 9001:2000 certifications in 2002.”

Guessing it wasn’t made public until a year after Lyman’s 2nd Ed. I’ve chatted with a lot of Europeans, and from the way the speak Swiss has just always been around, and dominating competitive shooting.
 

Barry Strickland

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Dave951
I would love to try rifle barrels but that would take a 300' long tunnel to eliminate wind effects and an entirely new design for a machine rest. I am willing but my years on this earth are limited. I figure I am looking another five years of working with pistol barrels.
I am on my third chronograph. I finally sprang for a Labradar about a year ago and am very glad I did. I finally went to ten shot groups instead of five shot groups to give a more meaningful group size results. Yes, I that was necessary.
 

tenngun

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Velocity won’t tell you a lot about pressure.
Lyman did do testing comparing GO to Curtis Harvey, I believe it was a Scottish powder. I don’t believe it is still made.
It was a low power powder. A load of about 40% more could reproduce GO velocities in a given gun, but has much lower pressures
Only a guess here but I will bet pressures are higher in Swiss
 

pamtnman

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Joining the purely anecdotal pile-on here: Swiss outperforms Goex in every way for me. Hotter, cleaner, faster etc. Swiss and Olde Eynsford are what I shoot. Luckily OE is made by the same company that makes GOEX, so being loyal to OE is not necessarily punishing GOEX.
 

oldhunter1954

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In testing with my machine rest with a chronograph Goex creates the lowest velocity, Swiss is higher velocity and Old Eynsford is the highest velocity. OE leaves the most residue and has the highest extreme spread of velocity. Swiss has the lowest extreme spread. All powders will produce similar groups at 25 yards as long as the patch thickness is correct and also ball size. The powder charge will vary with the powder used.
I now have about 1800 shots fired with the machine rest and it has been very interesting, eye opening and it looks like it will never end. This is using pistol barrels of 36, 40 and 45 caliber. There are so many possible variations of components it is mind boggling.
The machine rest weighs 13 pounds and is adjustable in vertical and horizontal sighting. The barrel block rolls up for loading on large pillow blocks. View attachment 92704
Wow. Nice setup! I just got Swiss 2f for my 54 caliber. I have not had time to test it out. What chronograph do you have. Is it not effected by the black powder blast?
 

pamtnman

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Velocity won’t tell you a lot about pressure.
Lyman did do testing comparing GO to Curtis Harvey, I believe it was a Scottish powder. I don’t believe it is still made.
It was a low power powder. A load of about 40% more could reproduce GO velocities in a given gun, but has much lower pressures
Only a guess here but I will bet pressures are higher in Swiss
British black powder sporting rifles from about 1875-1899 were nearly all regulated or sighted in with Curtiss & Harvey’s #6 powder. It was a unique blend of a bunch of different screening sizes. Considered optimum for everything from massive 8- bore stopping rifles to red stag rifles for the Highlands. From what I’ve been able to piece together, C&H #6 was no longer available by the 1930s.
 

.36Rooster

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I used up my goex finally, and the only thing i can get is swiss. With my .44 pistol at 12.5 grains, i didnt get any change whatsoever. Maybe its different for larger grain loads. But if the pressure was higher or lower, i would expect my point of impact would be higher or lower too. I didnt get any change in groups either. Im using 3f. Just shoot it and see. If your point of impact changes, or your group size alters, then there is a significant pressure difference. Otherwise, I wouldn't even worry.
 

billraby

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I normally use Goex just because it costs less. I bought a few pounds of Swiss for my 4 bore just because it was the only powder I could get. I was using a powder charge of 450 grains and there is a noticeable increase in recoil from Goex to Swiss. Don't know what the pressures are but I suspect Swiss runs a bit higher. It is still not anywhere near enough pressure to cause any problems.
 

Barry Strickland

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Oldhunter1954
To answer your question;
The chronograph I now use is a Labradar. It sits beside the machine rest and records the shots beautifully. The other chronographs I used required setting up quite a few yards from the muzzle to eliminate the errors caused by patches flying through the screens. They also missed recording too many shots. Yes, the Labradar will occasionally not record a shot but it is far superior to the other chronographs I have used.
 

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