Pre-French and Indian Horns?

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Using this Parts Kit, here are some additional pics of the finished horn. In the Link that Grenadier provided in Post #4, I mention this as a "Spanish" style pulverin. But that's only because TRS mentions that the original brass parts were excavated in an old dig in Florida.
But of course, this style of pulverin could be French or other.
I've often thought that this style, with it's bottle shape and bulbous spout was somewhat of a carry-over from horns/flasks from the Mid-17th Century and earlier.

Rick
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Flintlock

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If I remember right I seem to remember reading that F&I era and early horns were often larger-longer than much later horns due to larger caliber guns and the distances between settlements.
 

Bighorserider

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I grew up in Randolph County, Ill and had no idea it was supposed to be Ft Charters until I got into muzzle loading. Went there many times as a kid.
 

rich pierce

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That’s $80 I’d rather not have to spend, care to snap a photo for the group?
I’ve always avoided breaking copyright and prefer to respect the years of work that go into writing a book.

As a general comment to all, a good library is worth every penny. I save time and learn more from books. I’ve probably got $2000 in books and $8000 in original guns, horns, and bags. Great investments. A lot of gun and accoutrements makers end up copying other contemporary builders’ work or using kits and precarves, and few stand out to me.

Back on topic. There’s nothing about horn design or size before 1750 that is noticeably different from those of the French and Indian War period. Early horns are large because they were used with big bore guns or needed to hold a pound of powder to meet militia requirements.
Powder horns fall basically into 2 categories for me. Ones where a lathe was used to make the big plug and ones where a lathe was not used. In other words commercial horns or owner-made horns.

A few rules:
Northeastern early horns run large. A great many have flat pine plugs. Staples in the flat plug are not uncommon. The horn strap may also lace through a lobe in the edge of the big end, extending beyond the flat plug. Look up French and Indian War powder horns and you’ll see some.
Southern beehive and banded horns seem to be Revolutionary War or later.

There are no definitive rules or answers to a question like you’ve posed. If we had a hundred documented horns from before the F&I War in the Illinois territory, maybe we could see some trends. We don’t.

Whether rifle or horn or bag from 1760 and earlier, regional styles are not well established. Time and again an unsigned early rifle is attributed by someone to a region then a signed similar rifle is found and now we know the super early rifle was not made there. At all. Because the maker was from somewhere else.
So, the safest and smartest approach is to go generic and not over-sell “regional characteristics” for horns or bags or guns pre-1760 except where many examples are known (Lake George F&I War horns).
Make or buy a large plain horn with a flat pine buttplug and a body that tapers to a raised single band or raised spout end. Nobody can say it doesn’t fit 1700, or 1720, or 1740, or 1760, or possibly 1780.

There’s no horn you could buy or make that would make folks say “darn good early Illinois territory horn you’ve got there!”
 
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DixieTexian

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I’ve always avoided breaking copyright and prefer to respect the years of work that go into writing a book.

As a general comment to all, a good library is worth every penny. I save time and learn more from books. I’ve probably got $2000 in books and $8000 in original guns, horns, and bags. Great investments. A lot of gun and accoutrements makers end up copying other contemporary builders’ work or using kits and precarves, and few stand out to me.

Back on topic. There’s nothing about horn design or size before 1750 that is noticeably different from those of the French and Indian War period. Early horns are large because they were used with big bore guns or needed to hold a pound of powder to meet militia requirements.
Powder horns fall basically into 2 categories for me. Ones where a lathe was used to make the big plug and ones where a lathe was not used. In other words commercial horns or owner-made horns.

A few rules:
Northeastern early horns run large. A great many have flat pine plugs. Staples in the flat plug are not uncommon. The horn strap may also lace through a lobe in the edge of the big end, extending beyond the flat plug. Look up French and Indian War powder horns and you’ll see some.
Southern beehive and banded horns seem to be Revolutionary War or later.

There are no definitive rules or answers to a question like you’ve posed. If we had a hundred documented horns from before the F&I War in the Illinois territory, maybe we could see some trends. We don’t.

Whether rifle or horn or bag from 1760 and earlier, regional styles are not well established. Time and again an unsigned early rifle is attributed by someone to a region then a signed similar rifle is found and now we know the super early rifle was not made there. At all. Because the maker was from somewhere else.
So, the safest and smartest approach is to go generic and not over-sell “regional characteristics” for horns or bags or guns pre-1760 except where many examples are known (Lake George F&I War horns).
Make or buy a large plain horn with a flat pine buttplug and a body that tapers to a raised single band or raised spout end. Nobody can say it doesn’t fit 1700, or 1720, or 1740, or 1760, or possibly 1780.

There’s no horn you could buy or make that would make folks say “darn good early Illinois territory horn you’ve got there!”
I'm kinda surprised more of the folks who write these books don't make them available in Kindle format or similar so that they can offer them at a much more reasonable cost to folks who don't have the spare money around to spend thousands of dollars building up a reference library. If the intent is to be able to get your research out there for those interested, it would seem like it would serve the purpose better and avoid the expenses of publishing a niche book in a non electronic format.

Also, don't do a search for "French and Indian Buttplugs" or "Early 18th Century Buttplugs" or anything similar from a work computer.
 

oreclan

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For information on American Bison east of the Mississippi, I recommend "The Long Hunt, the Death of the Buffalo East of the Mississippi" by Ted Belue.

The Long Hunt: Death of the Buffalo East of the Mississippi: Belue, Ted Franklin: 9780811709682: Amazon.com: Books
As I am a bison nut, I have this book and have read it.
I have even visited the Alaskan Wildlife refuge to see the woodland bison being breed and reintroduced back into the the wild.
The woodland bison are not supposed to be the same subspecies as the plains bison, but can interbreed.
Unlike the assumption in Belue's book I think there were a subspecies of "plains" bison in Western Pennsylvania and Ohio. There are numerous place names that hint of this.
 
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I’ve always avoided breaking copyright and prefer to respect the years of work that go into writing a book.

As a general comment to all, a good library is worth every penny. I save time and learn more from books. I’ve probably got $2000 in books and $8000 in original guns, horns, and bags. Great investments. A lot of gun and accoutrements makers end up copying other contemporary builders’ work or using kits and precarves, and few stand out to me.

Back on topic. There’s nothing about horn design or size before 1750 that is noticeably different from those of the French and Indian War period. Early horns are large because they were used with big bore guns or needed to hold a pound of powder to meet militia requirements.
Powder horns fall basically into 2 categories for me. Ones where a lathe was used to make the big plug and ones where a lathe was not used. In other words commercial horns or owner-made horns.

A few rules:
Northeastern early horns run large. A great many have flat pine plugs. Staples in the flat plug are not uncommon. The horn strap may also lace through a lobe in the edge of the big end, extending beyond the flat plug. Look up French and Indian War powder horns and you’ll see some.
Southern beehive and banded horns seem to be Revolutionary War or later.

There are no definitive rules or answers to a question like you’ve posed. If we had a hundred documented horns from before the F&I War in the Illinois territory, maybe we could see some trends. We don’t.

Whether rifle or horn or bag from 1760 and earlier, regional styles are not well established. Time and again an unsigned early rifle is attributed by someone to a region then a signed similar rifle is found and now we know the super early rifle was not made there. At all. Because the maker was from somewhere else.
So, the safest and smartest approach is to go generic and not over-sell “regional characteristics” for horns or bags or guns pre-1760 except where many examples are known (Lake George F&I War horns).
Make or buy a large plain horn with a flat pine buttplug and a body that tapers to a raised single band or raised spout end. Nobody can say it doesn’t fit 1700, or 1720, or 1740, or 1760, or possibly 1780.

There’s no horn you could buy or make that would make folks say “darn good early Illinois territory horn you’ve got there!”
Excellent advice.

Here's some pre 1750 horns and one is dated to 1726.

Military - Arms & Accoutrements - Powder Horns American 1700 - 1759 | PDF (scribd.com)

Gus
 
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As I am a bison nut, I have this book and have read it.
I have even visited the Alaskan Wildlife refuge to see the woodland bison being breed and reintroduced back into the the wild.
The woodland bison are not supposed to be the same subspecies as the plains bison, but can interbreed.
Unlike the assumption in Belue's book I think there were a subspecies of "plains" bison in Western Pennsylvania and Ohio. There are numerous place names that hint of this.
I have been told by a biologist I knew that all our Buffalo today are cross breeds whose ancestors were plains, woodland and south western Buffalo species
This is an ‘I heard it at the campfire’ and not a real reference. But Buffalo populations were reduced to such a point they could barely have a viable population.
 

rich pierce

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The “buffalo horn” idea for this place and timeframe is conjecture. Anybody seen a documented pre-1750 buffalo horn? No. Ox or bull or cow horn? Yes.
If we are working with the premise of “whatever seems really cool and at least possible” then there’s no need for the initial question.
 
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If we can document Bison/buffalo in the 1600's as far east as Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Illinois etc. etc.

1700's inhabitants were using the hides for robes, bull boats, meat for sustenance and the wool for weaving etc. explain why they would not use a bison horn for powder just as soon as they would a cow.
 

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