Powder loads

[tenngun]

Some folks use 2, some 3. And they say it’s the ‘best load’ frankly I don’t know if 1700 fps knows the differnce.
But let’s say that your best groups come at 1700 fps. Sixty of three or seventy of two gets you that velocity
So one would want to aim at whatever charge you needed in four to get that velocity
Now the ‘kicker’
Will it make a difference at how fast the ball is accelerated to the size of your group.
Them that shoot the tightest groups are very concerned about the powder, so I don’t know.
Loaded out of my bag my guns out shoot me, so I can’t say. If I have 2 I shoot about 10% more then 3

 

[TDM]

Some folks use 2, some 3. And they say it’s the ‘best load’ frankly I don’t know if 1700 fps knows the differnce.
But let’s say that your best groups come at 1700 fps. Sixty of three or seventy of two gets you that velocity
So one would want to aim at whatever charge you needed in four to get that velocity
Now the ‘kicker’
Will it make a difference at how fast the ball is accelerated to the size of your group.
Them that shoot the tightest groups are very concerned about the powder, so I don’t know.
Loaded out of my bag my guns out shoot me, so I can’t say. If I have 2 I shoot about 10% more then 3

That makes sense to me.


But I'd never even own 5F. @Bad Karma

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yes…

It’s interesting to me that people will suggest reducing powder charges and then increasing them carefully “just to be safe”… ok. I’ll bite. What exactly are you looking for that would indicate a dangerous load or anything approaching it? There’s no real way to know except that people have regularly overloaded these rifles and guns ever since they were invented and a properly constructed gun in good repair will not “blow up” shooting black powder, unless there’s a short started load or other bore obstruction.

(Just don’t use 5F powder ooohhh! That’s dangerous!)

To be honest, I'm just being kind.
Load it with a good fitting charge for a given calibre.
In my smoothbores I can use less though making it more economical.
So if say you drop 75 grains of 2f in a .50 rifle try 50 grains of 4f. Adjust from there.

 

[deerstalkert]

yesterday i was shooting my .30 cal whatzit flintlock. load it liked was 30g of fff.
i have two brass flasks that i put ffff in one and fff in the other.
started getting tired and when i get tired i start losing my sight. mistook or misread the numbers of f's on the flask and charged with 30g's of ffff. as soon as i fired i knew what i had done. that shot "cracked" indicating i broke the sound barrier with that shot.
no harm no foul. the impact on the 50yard target was 2.5 inches higher than the fff group. windage was perfect.
so, i increased the fff charge to 40g and it "cracked". and the ball struck within 1/4 inch of the FFFF shot.
in any amount of BP there is only so much energy. that is why it is measured by volume.
if you take F,FF,FFF,FFFF, etc and weigh out equal amounts the energy contained is equal.

 

[Harmonica Bob]

A reduced load? That's how you start off with smokeless powder. Start low and work up watching for pressure signs but mostly accuracy changes. When you get 5 shots going in the same hole, you've found the sweet spot.
Thinking watching for an accuracy node would be the same with BP. (?)

For me, it depends on what the load is for? For a 58 cal musket NSSA target load, my load was 30 gns FFF and a .577 Lyman semi wadcutter Mini. The military load was 60 gns FF and a 530 gn Mini. For a hunting round ball load, I want that ball to flatten out like a quarter, when it hits a deer. My two 54's and one 50, round ball rifles like 80 gns FF. I reduced the load to 75 gns in one of them and got a tighter group, so that's my new load in that rifle. Same point of impact. I had a very deadly, 150 yd load in my 50 cal Ithaca Navy Hawken with a 385 gn,hollow point Mimi, like the Hornady Great Plains Bullet, with 60 gns of Pirodex. Back in the day, I believed that bullets were better than round balls for killing deer. I was wrong! Round balls are devestating on deer! When I first started shooting black powder rifles, I tried to work up loads of 90 and 100 gns. I know now that this is way too much! It's a waste of powder and time!

 

[Jim in San Diego]

I’m new here, but not new to Muzzleloading.

However I have noticed across multiple chats that many of you use 3f in your long guns.

I’ve always used 2f in long guns and 3f for pistols and other short barrel smoothbores and short shotguns.

I only use 4f for flint pans.

Have I been using too fine of a grain in my long guns all these years?

 

[deerstalkert]

I’m new here, but not new to Muzzleloading.

However I have noticed across multiple chats that many of you use 3f in your long guns.

I’ve always used 2f in long guns and 3f for pistols and other short barrel smoothbores and short shotguns.

I only use 4f for flint pans.

Have I been using too fine of a grain in my long guns all these years?

if you get good accuracy, use whatever you have!
you state you use 2f in your long guns. 2f is of course, coarser than 3f. find what your gun likes and use it.

 

[david w]

I sometimes use 3Fg in my .62, but I mostly have used 2Fg. If I'm using 3Fg Swiss, I reduce the charge by 25% over Goex 2Fg. The accuracy with Swiss is as good, or better than Goex. If I'm shooting my .50 T/C Hawken, I find 3Fg more accurate. I have never used anything but 3Fg in my .36.
One thing I can't conferm is what granulation did they use during the flintlock era. What was the potency at the time? They had to have different granulations unless everything other than the screened powder was rejected. I'm sure there was quality powder then, as it is now. I'm also sure there was inferior grade powders. Did they really use urine as the salt peter?

 

[Freedom]

I have used 25 grs. of 5FA with a round ball in a colt .44 Army replica with fair results. I would expect that a RB light load in a .50 would work but I wouldn't expect high accuracy.

5FA is NOT the same thing as 4ffffg that we use to prime with.
5fa is unglazed (no graphite) and is an un-refined mixture of 1f, 2ff, 3fff, and 4fff... Mesh .20-.50

GRADE	MESH RANGE
FA	3 - 5
2FA	4 - 12
3FA	10 - 16
4FA	12 - 20
5FA	20 - 50
6FA	30 - 50
7FA	40 - 100
Meal D	+ 50
Fine Meal	+ 100
X-Fine Meal	+140
Cannon Grade	4-12
1FG	12-20
2FG	16-30
3FG	20-50
4FG	40-100
5FG	+100

 

[wrcforge]

Hi Is it possible to use 4f in a 50cal rifle with a reduced load?

4f is a Priming power for the filnlock,,,,DONOT USE DOWN BORE!!! it will increase pressure that is unsafe....use 2f or 3f in the bore....

 

[Grenadier1758]

I’m new here, but not new to Muzzleloading.

However I have noticed across multiple chats that many of you use 3f in your long guns.

I’ve always used 2f in long guns and 3f for pistols and other short barrel smoothbores and short shotguns.

I only use 4f for flint pans.

Have I been using too fine of a grain in my long guns all these years?

Not if you have been getting acceptable accuracy. I agree with @deerstalkert.

 

[NorthFork]

I would like to see that data.

120kpsi would cause damage I think.

I agree.

 

[Bad Karma]

I have used 25 grs. of 5FA with a round ball in a colt .44 Army replica with fair results. I would expect that a RB light load in a .50 would work but I wouldn't expect high accuracy.

Why wouldn’t you expect high accuracy? What factors would be responsible?

 

[david58]

I would like to see that data.

120kpsi would cause damage I think.

120ksi is exceeding ultimate strength on high strength steels. Damage in a ML barrel would be a certainty.

David
NM

 

[Erwan]

120ksi is exceeding ultimate strength on high strength steels. Damage in a ML barrel would be a certainty.

David
NM

You're right, that's sure.
Can somebody obtain that kind of pressure with black powder? Curious to see...

 

[deerstalkert]

120,000 psi? not with BP in a firearm. a enclosed casing ie. a bomb its possible.

 

[david w]

I wish I could find my old Dixie Gun Works catalog where they demonstrated a length of a Douglas barrel fill with BP and capped at both ends. It was ignited with a slow fuse. All the powder gasses escaped out the touch hole and the barrel survived.
If you ever find yourself near Union City, TN, I suggest you stop by and look at all the antiques on the wall. They allowed my behind the counter to get a better look. Note: they are now primarily a catalog order business, so don't expect a fancy showroom. You must also look at the antique cars. The sad part is, they don't control the atmosphere any longer. No heat, air-conditioning, or humidity control. I'm sure it will deteriorate these priceless jewels over time. I would like to own the Gatling gun they have for sale!

 

[Britsmoothy]

4f is a Priming power for the filnlock,,,,DONOT USE DOWN BORE!!! it will increase pressure that is unsafe....use 2f or 3f in the bore....

Proof please. I've heard this mantra for decades and no one has ever demonstrated it is dangerous or produced evidence to support the assumption.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I agree.

That pressure is double the service pressure of most common modern rifle cartridges.
To make a statement that encourages an assumption thus needs documented proof others wise it is folly.

 

[Britsmoothy]

120ksi is exceeding ultimate strength on high strength steels. Damage in a ML barrel would be a certainty.

David
NM

Black powder, loaded correctly in a muzzloader irrespective of powder size will not produce those pressures.
If it did or even possibly got close, muzzleloading would be banned and useless.
It is unfounded statements like this one that got everyone pooping in their pants over using 4f in the first place.

Please produce data from a laboratory that substantiates your comment in the context of using 4f black powder in a normally loaded traditional muzzleloader.


I'll be fair, I'll give you a decade to find the data like I have every other person that spouts this nonsense. You've got till err 2032