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powder in the pan ignites powder in chamber

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The beauty of black powder is that the requirement for air/oxygen is nil, and taken care of by the inclusion of sulfur in the mixture by design. The sulfer releases sufficient oxegen upon combustion to support the burning/ explosion of the mixture.

If there was no air there would be no ignition. By that I mean there would be no spark to ignite the powder. You must have the oxygen in the air for the process to begin.

It's interesting how the topic has shifted from igniting the priming powder to igniting the charge. I don't for a second believe radiant heat travels from the sparks to igniting the barrel. I do believe a little powder found its way thru a vent into the pan or sparks found their way into the vent to ignite.
 
If there was no air there would be no ignition. By that I mean there would be no spark to ignite the powder. You must have the oxygen in the air for the process to begin.

It's interesting how the topic has shifted from igniting the priming powder to igniting the charge. I don't for a second believe radiant heat travels from the sparks to igniting the barrel. I do believe a little powder found its way thru a vent into the pan or sparks found their way into the vent to ignite.
This post is sort of right, but mostly wrong.

There are plenty of ways to initiate black powder that don’t require “air”. And once initiated, the chemical compounds present require no outside elements to combust.
 
This should settle it....

E49DA463-42DA-4DED-B731-C54DA5CF3E16.jpeg
 
For those of you with too much time on your hands...below is a link to the US Army BRL report on black powder.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a150455.pdf
A couple of quick comparisons. A lot of you may have had a passing exposure to RDX or C4.

C4 burns at about 26,000 FPS. Black powder (at 1 atmosphere) 13 FPS. Average burning temp for black is 420C (790 degrees F).

Fun stuff for sure. But that’s a low temp to initiate.
 
Before I started this thread, I was not aware of the experiments by Larry Pretcher. They are really interesting, especially the one looking down the barrel.
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-3-photography-through-the-muzzle/It looks like it is a flame/fireball, that enters the chamber. Maybe it is associated with radiant heat also. I don’t know, that’s the reason I have been asking everyone here what they think.

It does make a difference what actually causes the ignition, especially the delay. It could help solve where and how much powder to put in the pan.

Also Larry has done other experiments, that seem to disprove the idea, that for fastest ignition, it’s best to have the powder on the far side of the pan from the touch hole. Links have been provided earlier in this thread.

Thanks for all your thoughts and keep them coming.
 
One last thought and I will shut up...

With regards to radiant heat and the touch hole being “clogged” with powder. The conventional thought is that this turns the burn into a fuse...that’s sort of correct. But not really.

If the touch hole is full of powder, that “hides” the main charge from the Radiant Heat of the pan flash. It then requires the powder in the touch hole to then ignite creating a second heat wave that initiates the main charge.

A fuze? Not really. Think of it as more of a chain reaction.

As far as amount of prime and location...again, too much prime fills the touch hole and “hides” the main charge from the heat wave; too far away (at the other side of the pan) lessons the intensity of the wave relative to a closer charge combusting in a similar fashion.
 
I agree with you Brazosland. I know some people even pile the powder up on a forty-five degree angle over the touch hole. What I’ve found to work best for me is a moderately thin line all the way across the bottom of the pan.
 
I have been under the impression, that the sparks from the burning priming powder ignited the powder in the chamber. I have experienced keeping the touch hole open and using the minimum of priming powder shortened the delay between, when the frizzen is struck and the gun goes off.

I recently watched a video and it was stated, that it was not the sparks from the burning priming powder that ignited the powder in the chamber, but the radiant heat from the burning powder, that caused the ignition. Will someone care to elaborate on this concept?

Thanks
You are correct, keeping the vent clear & not using too much priming is the correct method. The flash from the priming goes into the vent & ignites the main charge. Radiant heat has nothing to do with it.
Keith.
 
I am not a Scientist by any stretch of the imagination. You can't have heat with out a source. The initial source is the friction caused by the flint striking the frizzen and running down it scraping off those minute pieces of steel heating them up till they are molten. The heat from the molten metal would reaching the priming charge in the pan first, because it is being push forward of the molten metal, but we are only talking a Nano-second, so small of an amount of time it is insignificant, the more sparks the faster it happens. That sets off the priming powder in the pan. Once that is set off you have flame/burning gases, heat, and sparks (incomplete burnt powder) being pushed out of the pan from the burning/exploding powder, which is causing an expanding force. That is all happening in 3 denominational field. The path of those materials follow is the path of lease resistance, which is the flash hole (on that side of the pan) into the main powder charge. If it hits the barrel it stops not reaching the powder. What is forced in to the flash hole first spark or burning gases, does it matter? All are preceded by the heat wave they are producing, but again it is a Nano-second. So since that Nano-second is so short it is irrelevant what causes the detonation of the main charge, both the heat wave and what is producing it is hot enough to detonate the main powder charge. It is kinda like being hit by a car going 100 mph. What hits you first the air being pushed by the car or the car? Does it really mater, there won't be enough time to say the air being pushed. DANNY
 
This is simple. If it was "radiant heat" we wouldn't need a touchhole. The heat would transfer through the metal through conduction and ignite the powder. It is the flaming powder that flashes through the touchhole and lights the powder charge. If it a flaming solid fuse or a flaming gass fuse it's still the flame not just the heat.
If there was no touch hole, then the heat would be transferred by conductive transfer, a very slow process. Its the heat front generated by the flame front of the burning powder in the pan.

Wild Tim in my opinion is correct. also, think about caplocks. The tiny molten ember being forced down through nipple is enough to ignite the main charge... it’s the same principal for flintlocks, in my opinion, it only takes one spark to set it off... once again I’ve not tested it and it’s just my opinion.
There are no molten embers created by the ignition of the priming in a percussion. That ignition generates a flame and heat front through the nipple and flash channel.

So, yes, the flint scrapes off tiny burning sparks of steel to ignite the powder in the pan. After that ignition of the pan powder, its the heat front and flame front that travel through the tough hole.
 
The flint crystal hits the Frizzen and fractures thin layers at the tip. As these crystals break off their molecular bond they release energy across the spectrum.. our eyes detect it as a "spark" of light, but there is infrared and other wavelengths contained in the release. At its hottest there will be plasma surrounding the tiny crystal fragments.

This concentrated microscopic hotspots, either by direct conduction or by radiation, break apart the potassium nitrate molecule which leaves nitric acid + potassium (possibly why very fine powder is preferred on the pan.) This reaction releases energy and triggers the separation of the bonds of 1 of the 3 oxygen atoms in the nitrate.. which releases even more energy, and an oxygen atom to further chem down the trail... the rest of the molecule oxydizes with the potassium atom to form "potassium nitrite".
And so, in the bulk of the reaction, you end up with one Oxygen molecule (O2) for every pair of potassium nitrite molecules.

This free O2 is the oxidizer for the coal and sulfur, which also enjoyed the micro hot spots from the flint breakages and have begun reacting with lots of the generated oxygen.
The sulfur and the carbon will oxidize into carbon and sulfur di-oxides (gases)... HOT gases. As they oxidize they will emit high levels of energy in a multitude of ranges. Lots of infrared in high intensity, at close proximity.. and in a brief, brief, time.

The thing to remember here is that to trigger these reactions, you just need to hit a few molecules just right.. and then they will chain react.. showering their neighboring molecules with all sorts of radiation... ...and hopefully reaching the bigger chunks across the "flash hole"... otherwise, you have to take the long road and have the thermal aspect of this reaction get you across the pan, and through the hole.

So a little bit of both.. one is incomplete without the other.
 
I can rember over 40years ago when i had my first flintlock which would not spark under any circumstances. A new club, new members & we knew jack about flintlocks except they were useless. When i wanted to shoot this one , i would load it, prime the pan , take aim & with the frizzen forward another person would put a lighted match into the lock pan. Worked every time but slightly dangerous. Now i know better & shoot only flintlocks, custom, factory produced & originals. I load with a vent prick in place, remove the prick & minimum powder in the pan & instant ignition. Only failures if a flint breaks
 
My addition to this thread is directed to the original poster. I have read every reply to your question. Through my reading here I have come to this conclusion.
A tiny flame from the flash pan is forced into the touch hole and ignites the powder, most of the time. I use the word "forced" because of the explosion that happens when the powder in the flash pan is ignited. If it is the heat in front of the flame or simply the flame is uncertain to me and I don't really care as long as there is a loud BOOM and some kind of meat is on the ground.
To be honest I don't think you can ever be satisfied with one positive answer because there is no positive answer. Too many variables involved.

Mule
 
The flint crystal hits the Frizzen and fractures thin layers at the tip. As these crystals break off their molecular bond they release energy across the spectrum.. our eyes detect it as a "spark" of light, but there is infrared and other wavelengths contained in the release. At its hottest there will be plasma surrounding the tiny crystal fragments.

This concentrated microscopic hotspots, either by direct conduction or by radiation, break apart the potassium nitrate molecule which leaves nitric acid + potassium (possibly why very fine powder is preferred on the pan.) This reaction releases energy and triggers the separation of the bonds of 1 of the 3 oxygen atoms in the nitrate.. which releases even more energy, and an oxygen atom to further chem down the trail... the rest of the molecule oxydizes with the potassium atom to form "potassium nitrite".
And so, in the bulk of the reaction, you end up with one Oxygen molecule (O2) for every pair of potassium nitrite molecules.

This free O2 is the oxidizer for the coal and sulfur, which also enjoyed the micro hot spots from the flint breakages and have begun reacting with lots of the generated oxygen.
The sulfur and the carbon will oxidize into carbon and sulfur di-oxides (gases)... HOT gases. As they oxidize they will emit high levels of energy in a multitude of ranges. Lots of infrared in high intensity, at close proximity.. and in a brief, brief, time.

The thing to remember here is that to trigger these reactions, you just need to hit a few molecules just right.. and then they will chain react.. showering their neighboring molecules with all sorts of radiation... ...and hopefully reaching the bigger chunks across the "flash hole"... otherwise, you have to take the long road and have the thermal aspect of this reaction get you across the pan, and through the hole.

So a little bit of both.. one is incomplete without the other.

If the flint is creating the spark then why does the frizzen need to be a steel with a high carbon content not just hard?

With no powder in the pan why do you have small pieces of steel remaining after multiple sparkings of the lock?
 
The spark created by the flint hitting the steel does not come from the flint.......It comes from the steel being ignited by the flint, both impacting and cutting small pieces of the steel which are ignited by the energy created from this impact. The composition of the frizzen face has to be of sufficient hardness and carbon content in order to facilitate the formation of the “sparks”. The small pieces I sometimes find in my unprimed pan are mostly flint fragments, and the occasional, very small molten steel fragment(s) that cooled when it hit the pan surface at a much lower temperature.
 
The spark created by the flint hitting the steel does not come from the flint.......It comes from the steel being ignited by the flint, both impacting and cutting small pieces of the steel which are ignited by the energy created from this impact. The composition of the frizzen face has to be of sufficient hardness and carbon content in order to facilitate the formation of the “sparks”. The small pieces I sometimes find in my unprimed pan are mostly flint fragments, and the occasional, very small molten steel fragment(s) that cooled when it hit the pan surface at a much lower temperature.
Im aware
 
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