Perfection in metal and wood finishes

[Kilted Cowboy]

Question for the forum. How perfect do you think the metal and wood were finished on long rifles in the 1700s? Did they finish them to the point of perfection that I see on this forum? The photos I see are beautiful not a flaw in the stock or the metal. Hours are spent to make them so. On a typical rifle build, not a presentation piece going to a Governor or such, would they have taken the time and did they have the equipment to make them perfect?
I love the look of a perfect rifle, but I also love the look of a rifle that shows it was made by hand with some of the builders soul imparted on it. I am planning my first build and just contemplating theses things. Thanks for your opinions.

 

[Artificer]

First, I hope Dave Person chimes in on this as I know you will find his remarks very interesting.

They had the capability to make the wood and metal finish as near perfect as possible, but not the desire in all places. It was not uncommon to see small scraper or file marks inside the trigger bow as you can see in the following link:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/harrisonburg-va-1764.110673/

The brass thimbles were also not usually hand filed to as high a state of perfection and you can see that in the link above as well.

They used scrapers to shape and smooth the stock and then often times "boned" the wood to further smooth it. This leaves a less than perfect surface when viewed carefully at different angles in good light. You may even be able to see a little of that in the stocks of the rifles shown in the link.

Bottom line, the overall effect was pleasing to the eye, but they didn't go for ultimate perfection in finishing - except when making very high grade guns.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

Hmmm. Like all else it depends. Military guns were kept highly polished. Brick dust was used to keep the barrel shiny. Somebarrels were enameled in areas, the metal carved or chased as it were, fitter with gold silver or ivory inlays.
Many guns were in unfinished white barrels that would be draw filed but not brought to a fine finish. Bluing was very common in the old days. That was a similar solution to browning and then treated with boiling water to get a blue/black finish. Fire blueing was also done. And browning was common. Any chemical treatment doesn’t require a very fine metal finish. However keep in mind the gunmakers had seven to fourteen years training under a master. And this was their six day a week work. They did exceptionally fine work.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Most examples I have seen are very well done and clean. Not only were the arms of the day functional but they were very much works of art and the builders of the day understood that. Hopefully Dave will see this and chime in, however most examples I've had the privilege of looking over were and still are with age exceptional. The quality of the rifle is a direct reflection on the builder. Rifles built by hand should display a great deal of detail and perfection for the very reason they are built by hand! When it comes to truly investing the time into building you should want nothing more than to strive to the level of perfection you see fit. Wait till Dave shows you some images... You want to see perfection, your mind will truly be blown... His work is the real deal. I truly admire Daves work and can say he has helped me along the way in perfecting my own details through countless messages and images.

In short, only YOU can make it what you want. The rifle I just completed is a very basic representation of what you likely would have found in a commoners hands during the period. Even on a simplistic rifle the details in workmanship were not overlooked nor corners skimped.

This video will give you a sneak peak and some of those "Details"

 

[Kilted Cowboy]

crewdawg445 thanks for your imput. The video was most enjoyable and informative. Starting my education on longrifle building at age 62, hope I have the time and eyesight to get reasonably good at it. Used to work 70 hrs a week and just finished putting twin boys through college. Now semi retired with a 40 hr a week job so can start working on some passions which have been put on the back burner for decades. So glad I found this forum so I can avoid some common mistakesand learn from the knowledge ya'll are kind enough to impart on us rookies.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Excellent! You certainly have started down a path that will only lead to a obsession!!! Do enjoy the journey and learning experience as it indeed is immensely rewarding. My first advice would be acquiring some good reference materials in building, plenty of good literature is available on the subject and it will give good insight on the in's and out's.

 

[Kilted Cowboy]

Agree, I got the following books. The art of building the Pennsylvania long rifle by Ehrig, Miller and Dixon . The modern Kentucky Rifle by RH McCrory. Recreating The American Long Rifle by Buchele, Shumway and Alexander. Also Jim Turpin's DVD Building the Jim Chambers Long Gun Kit. Do you have any other recommended readings or videos? I want to suck up as much knowledge as possible before the build starts

 

[PluggedNickel]

Great question! I've often wondered about that as well. My Patriot ancestors were gunsmiths, they fought in the Revolutionary War. Came over from Germany early 1700's.
Here is a reproduction of Adam Yerian's Pennsylvania long rifle, made at Sauder Village gunshop, featured on the cover of Muzzle Blasts magazine December 1995. I have on very rare occasions seen Yerian rifles up for auction. I've always been a day late and dollar short of getting one though! The Yerian's (Jerian's in the old country) were my mother's family. Frederick Yerian is the Patriot ancestor of those of us in the family that are members of The SAR, and DAR. John Yerian, Adam's father was also a gunsmith, they lived in PA in his days though. The family migrated to Ohio in the 1800's.
The added touches helped to sell the guns and build the gunsmith's reputation. Still, if you wanted top of the line stock, all the fancy inlays, engraving, it would cost you top dollar. I'm betting bread and butter were a lot of more plain Jane versions.

 

[Crewdawg445]

That copy available for sale?!?!

 

[tenngun]

Even the plain janes were well finished off. The southern mountain style comes to mind, and also the trade guns. Rifles and fusils made to be as low cost as possible had some fine work. Just inletting the dragon side plate is a job.

 

[Col. Batguano]

It is true that you will spend more hours doing the same task on your first gun than you do on subsequent ones. Do the best job you can on each task, and don't submit to the temptation to say "it's good enough" until multiple days have passed after you said that the first time, and you have no further improvements that can be made based on your current skill and knowledge set. That is particularly true when it comes to carving and engraving. Use you eraser a bunch until you are happy with the design for 2-3 days in a row, and any "improving" makes it look worse than what it was that you were trying to improve.

 

[PluggedNickel]

That copy available for sale?!?!

Sadly it is not. I don’t know if one could commission a Sauder Village gunsmith to make another one or not. I believe they auction the guns made there though, so that raises a lot of money usually!
It is a good drive north for me, but it is on my to do list to go there and talk to the gunsmiths if possible.
I think Adam would be impressed, and humbled that they chose one of his rifles to replicate all these years later.

 

[PluggedNickel]

Most examples I have seen are very well done and clean. Not only were the arms of the day functional but they were very much works of art and the builders of the day understood that. Hopefully Dave will see this and chime in, however most examples I've had the privilege of looking over were and still are with age exceptional. The quality of the rifle is a direct reflection on the builder. Rifles built by hand should display a great deal of detail and perfection for the very reason they are built by hand! When it comes to truly investing the time into building you should want nothing more than to strive to the level of perfection you see fit. Wait till Dave shows you some images... You want to see perfection, your mind will truly be blown... His work is the real deal. I truly admire Daves work and can say he has helped me along the way in perfecting my own details through countless messages and images.

In short, only YOU can make it what you want. The rifle I just completed is a very basic representation of what you likely would have found in a commoners hands during the period. Even on a simplistic rifle the details in workmanship were not overlooked nor corners skimped.

This video will give you a sneak peak and some of those "Details"

Wow, awesome video. I have been to Williamsburg, many years ago.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Sadly it is not. I don’t know if one could commission a Sauder Village gunsmith to make another one or not. I believe they auction the guns made there though, so that raises a lot of money usually!
It is a good drive north for me, but it is on my to do list to go there and talk to the gunsmiths if possible.
I think Adam would be impressed, and humbled that they chose one of his rifles to replicate all these years later.

I was referring to the magazine but I'll take the rifle knowing it's well done!

 

[dlpowell]

Question for the forum. How perfect do you think the metal and wood were finished on long rifles in the 1700s? Did they finish them to the point of perfection that I see on this forum? The photos I see are beautiful not a flaw in the stock or the metal. Hours are spent to make them so. On a typical rifle build, not a presentation piece going to a Governor or such, would they have taken the time and did they have the equipment to make them perfect?
I love the look of a perfect rifle, but I also love the look of a rifle that shows it was made by hand with some of the builders soul imparted on it. I am planning my first build and just contemplating theses things. Thanks for your opinions.

IN the 1700's and earlier gun metal was left in the white. Sandpaper didn't exist. Stocks were scraped and whiskered to a final finish. As time progressed charcoal bluing of metal was used and then browning. Personally, I absolutely hate a dark blue finish and shiny stocks on a ML'er. That's my opinion.

 

[Crewdawg445]

IN the 1700's and earlier gun metal was left in the white. Sandpaper didn't exist. Stocks were scraped and whiskered to a final finish. As time progressed charcoal bluing of metal was used and then browning. Personally, I absolutely hate a dark blue finish and shiny stocks on a ML'er. That's my opinion.

Believe the OP is referring to the attention to detail put forth in making sure the wood and metal fitment are precise.

While I agree dark bluing and a modern shiny stock finish is unsightly, even with traditional methods perfection in a build was and still is very alive.

 

[dave_person]

IN the 1700's and earlier gun metal was left in the white. Sandpaper didn't exist. Stocks were scraped and whiskered to a final finish. As time progressed charcoal bluing of metal was used and then browning. Personally, I absolutely hate a dark blue finish and shiny stocks on a ML'er. That's my opinion.

Hi,
Sandpaper was available to European and probably American wood workers within the major cities during the 18th century. There are shipping manifests showing that it was imported to America during mid century. It likely was not available to most rural American gun makers and possibly too expensive. Abrasive powders were also widely used such as emory, pumice, rottenstone, and brick dust. German makers were also familiar with using horsetail stalks for sanding. Throughout the 18th century barrels were often left white but they also were charcoal and temper blued, processes used on barrels since the 16th century. It is unclear when rust browning entered the picture but John George wrote that it was applied in Britain throughout much of the 18th century. Erhard Wolff in his massive book on jaeger rifles describes rust browning as an 18th century process as well. However, it is not clear when it became popular in America. The most common wood finish was a mix of boiled linseed oil and some sort of resin to create a varnish, which often was fairly shiny but acquires a mellower sheen in time. There is evidence that Lehigh Valley gun makers may have sealed their stocks with shellac and then applied an oil varnish. I believe we should avoid generalizing too much about how 18th century guns were made. With respect to KC's original question, I responded in detail in another forum where he posted the same question but will just say that we underestimate the value of skill. With skill and experience, the proper sequence of procedures will create clean crisp work with no greater effort.

dave

 

[George]

Hi,
Sandpaper was available to European and probably American wood workers within the major cities during the 18th century. There are shipping manifests showing that it was imported to America during mid century. It likely was not available to most rural American gun makers and possibly too expensive. Abrasive powders were also widely used such as emory, pumice, rottenstone, and brick dust.

The Pennsylvania Gazette
December 11, 1755
Lately imported from London, and to be sold cheap by JOHN BAYLY, ....salt petre, allom, rotten stone, pumice stone and sand paper, best glue melting pots,...

Spence

 

[Crewdawg445]

Excellent replies Dave and Spence! Thank you for sharing the above information.

 

[tenngun]

From 1631 ‘gun makers rates as established by the Royal Select committee
“For making clean and new russetting of a musket -/-/4”
And,
“For yearly dressing and keeping clean a musket that needs not new russeting with the furniture and rest -/-/10”