Penetration Tests

[PreserveFreedom]

I have often wondered how a cap and ball revolver would measure up to a modern cartridge handgun for defense. Today I did some testing so I could stop wondering. I don't have any ballistic gel so I used 2-liter bottles filled with water to give a rough measurement of penetration.

First I compared 36 cal with 20 grains of Pyrodex P behind it compared to 38 spl, 158gr LRN. The 36 cal penetrated into the 3rd bottle and the 38 penetrated into the 5th.

Then I compared 44 cal with 20 grains of Pyrodex P behind it to 45ACP, 230gr FMJ. The 44 penetrated into the 3rd bottle and the 45 penetrated into the 6th bottle.

What I found strange is that none of the projectiles from the above tests were recovered. All I can think of is maybe as they penetrated the last bottle the curve of the bottle deflected the slowed round to the side, not allowing it to actually enter its final bottle.

I did one last test, since some have mentioned using 2F in a pistol. I loaded the 44 up with 20 grains of 2F BP. It penetrated into the 3rd bottle, just like the Pyrodex P tests did. As a bonus though, this one ball actually entered the 3rd bottle after piercing the plastic. This allowed me to recover a nice unsmashed lead ball.

You can see the perfect marks made by the rifling and if you notice a small ring slightly in front of those marks, that is where the ramrod shoved the ball into the chamber. Part of me wants to keep it for a conversation piece and part of me wants to put a patch around it and see if it will fire out of a .45 cal rifle.

About the testing though...

The cap and ball revolvers did penetrate less than their modern cartridge arms. However, I have no doubt that they would still do the job in a defense situation. A bonus of the cap and ball revolver is that the balls should be made out of pure lead, not an alloy. If so, the lead should deform in the body, especially if it hits a bone, and create a wicked wound cavity.

I hope that my testing was useful to you. Feedback is welcomed.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I load my old army with about 35 grains of 3fg. While still not a Dirty Harry gun, it should hold it's own against the lower power factory 38 loads.

 

With all due respect, this idea of using cap and ball for self defense has been beaten to death. When lives are at stake, anything less than the most modern, efficient firearm is pure fantasy. Yes, muzzleloaders are better than nothing and they are romantic, but when your life is on the line, do yourself a favor and use something more practical.

 

[rabjr]

Yes its fun to spend a day doing something like this but at the end of the day it shouldn't be used to justify using them for home defense, not when you have that 1911 sitting there. I like my Colts but when it comes to protecting me and mine cap and balls are not in the equation.

 

[paleryder]

Great test. I'm sure I'll have to verify your findings at our next outing. When I shot the cantelopes that I mentioned in my previous "AAR" post, penetration wasn't an issue. The .38 special rounds passed cleanly through hardly leaving a mark. What got our attention was the effect the round ball had on the cantelope compared to effect caused by the .38 special rounds. There was a surprising difference. My friend, who has no interest in black powder, just looked at me in disbelief and said "Whoa,I think you may be converting me to this black powder stuff." I'm going to redo the test in case it was a fluke. If you're 2-liter number one, all the bullets are going through you. The question is what kind of damages is done along the way.

 

[Don]

Nothing wrong with this kind of experimentation, its fun and informative. If I were you I'd repeat the trial with the .44 using 25 grains of Pyro P. That charge shouldn't damage your revolver and probably give you better penetration. I would also try both revolvers with conicals and see what happens just for fun. As far as self defence, yes modern guns are wiser choices for all the reasons given in these kinds of threads but I still think its useful to know what the old smoke wagons can do in case the politicians have their way with destroying our gun rights. Heck, a lot of folks in Europe already look to BP guns as self defence tools as that is all they are allowed. Any way, fun experiment, thanks for sharing.

Don

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have a bunch of klangers in my woods and a .36 Navy doesn't leave much of a splatter. My .54 rifle, with moderate charge, dents in 1/4 steel "U" channel pretty impressively (.223 Rem jacketed soft point pokes a clean hole through - which both surprised and impressed me and was the last time I did that!)

I figured the .36 was about 75% of my S&W M14 .38 Spl and your bottles bear that out. Better than a rock but no modern firearm powerwise. (I carry 148 gr JHP (regular, not +P) for coyotes when I'm bowhunting - it's still a fine and accurate cartridge when used sensibly).

To be fair, though, the cap-revolvers did also use conicals. Put a round ball and FFFg in the .38 Spl and it's . . . a .36 Navy for all intents.

 

[PreserveFreedom]

Hey I agree with all of you that a modern weapon is the best defense tool. What is the harm in a little research though? Right now the 1911 is my daily carry piece. Last week it was the 38spl you see in the first pic. Next week it may be my Glock or my Beretta (both in 40S&W). I have more guns than I have socks. My BP arms currently make up 1/3 of my collection. They have become a passion of mine though so what's the harm in exploring them to their full potential? I would just like to know that if I could use a cap and ball gun for defense if I had to. The day may come where I am dressed up in "cowboy" attire (I do live in the best area for this). If such a thing happens it is nice to know my holstered weapon will work for defense and I don't have to toss an automatic in my pocket just in case.

 

[Texas77]

Just food for thought...what if you tried the test again with real max combat loads? Like closer to 25 grains for the Navy and 30 for the Army .44? If we're doing comparisions with modern firearms for effectiveness why use light target loads?

 

[Don]

I was going to suggest max loads but I saw that his revolvers were brass framed and I didn't want him to damage his guns.

Don

 

[PreserveFreedom]

I have a steel framed 1858 New Army. Next time I feel like killing some innocent water I can go ahead and put 30 grains in that.

 

[Rhett Griffith]

Last winter, I ran my trapline with my 1860 Army using 20 gr. FFFg. It did just fine on raccoons and opossums, but when I caught the first coyote, he took two shots to the forehead and was still snarling. I stepped over to the side and put one through the ear, killing him. When I got home, I skinned him out and found both balls had flattened on the skull underneath the skin. I then upped my load to 30 grains and proceeded to kill 5 or 6 more coyotes with no more problems.

 

[poordevil]

This is just me talking, but when I had an 1860 Army, I found the cylinder to hold 40 grs of 3FFFg. I often shot that with a round ball and tallow/bees wax over, no wad. It shot great.

P

 

[romel]

With regard to the self-defense with weapons of black powder i agree that it is more practical a revolver modern ... but when you live in a country like Spain where having a handgun for defense is totally prohibited a revolver of black powder is the best solution ... but here in Spain, the law is made in favor of the offenders and is preferable left kill :shake: :shake: :shake:

 

[arcticap]

I think that there would be much more
success recovering the spent balls by
using one gallon milk jugs filled with
water as done on the Box O' Truth website
which also does many penetration tests.

I recovered these spent revolver balls from
squib loads that resulted from spoiled powder.
The velocity was too low to completely
penetrate the thick foam target backing and
some bounced off.

 

[jethro224]

I would just like to know that if I could use a cap and ball gun for defense if I had to. The day may come where I am dressed up in "cowboy" attire (I do live in the best area for this). If such a thing happens it is nice to know my holstered weapon will work for defense and I don't have to toss an automatic in my pocket just in case.

With all the dead cowboys lyin' around, killed by C&B revolvers, why is there any question that one could be used for self defense? :idunno:

Still it is always fun blowin' up water bottles or fruit with bullets.
I do think the tests would be more fair using a conical in the BP guns and more powder in the .44 too.

 

[PreserveFreedom]

I do think the tests would be more fair using a conical in the BP guns and more powder in the .44 too.

I could do that next time. I just have to wait until I accumulate a few more soda bottles. I do agree that gallon jugs would be better because of their size and shape, but we drink more soda here than we do milk.

 

[barnettshale]

RGriffith,
Here is a picture taken a few years back.

An Axis spike I shot in the spine with my .54 and finished off with my Remington .44. This was back in the days late 80's when I used Pyrodex P. I use only black these days. I was much younger then. I could kneel down. Now all I can do is stand up and lean over. Or, fall down and land with a "thud".

 

[Rhett Griffith]

Very nice! :thumbsup: I had to deliver a coup de grace on a small whitetail deer my wife shot a few years ago and my .44 Remington did the trick with a single shot.

 

[bdhutier]

The day may come where I am dressed up in "cowboy" attire (I do live in the best area for this).

Where abouts, if I may ask (grew up in Las Cruces)?