Pedersoli's M1854 Lorenz Rifle

[Notchy Bob]

Do any of you folks own one of these?

This thread is specifically concerned with the Pedersoli M1854 Lorenz replica, not the originals or the other Italian remakes. I believe Pedersoli rolled this one out in 2017, or thereabouts. I'm not seriously considering getting one of these. Not yet, anyway. Budgetary and space restraints, you know. However, I do have a couple of questions.

First, what is the length of pull? Dixie Gun works is normally pretty good about providing this measurement in their product descriptions, but they didn't for this one. I am short of stature by today's standards, but probably about average for the 18th or early 19th century. Born out of season, I guess, but in any event, a lot of the modern production made muzzleloaders are too long in the pull for me to shoot comfortably. Most originals, on the other hand, fit pretty well. In measuring the photograph and doing a simple calculation based on the known barrel length (37"), I get 13.94 inches.

The next questions are about the nipple. What is the thread size and pitch on the nipple for this rifle, and does it use a standard musket cap? I have seen a couple of close-up photos which seem to show a smaller-diameter cone, as if the nipple was intended for regular sporting caps rather than the military-styled musket caps, but I can't be sure.

I'm interested in hearing from people who are familiar with this rifle. I’m not so interested in suggestions for other places to ask. I have contacted a couple of dealers who have not responded.

I would like to have one of these some day, although I'm not in a rush. The price now is usually around $1,700, more or less. You can still get originals for less than that, although they might need some work. The Pedersoli rifle isn't a perfect replica, either. The most egregious "error" is the American black walnut stock. The originals were stocked in European beech, and I can't think of any logical reason for deviating from this. There are a few other details, but the stock is the big one.

Anyway, if anyone can give definite answers to my questions about the LOP and the nipple on the Pedersoli replica, I would appreciate it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Grenadier1758]

Even Pedersoli doesn't list the Length of Pull.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/lorenz-rifle-infantry-type-ii-rifle#specificheTecniche

 

[Grenadier1758]

Even Pedersoli doesn't list the Length of Pull.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/lorenz-rifle-infantry-type-ii-rifle#specificheTecniche

Pedersoli has three nipples for muskets. Nome are identified for the Lorentz. Part number in the parts diagram is not used in the accessories catalog.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Even Pedersoli doesn't list the Length of Pull.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/lorenz-rifle-infantry-type-ii-rifle#specificheTecniche

Pedersoli has three nipples for muskets. Nome are identified for the Lorentz. Part number in the parts diagram is not used in the accessories catalog.

Thank you for your response.

I have checked various dealer pages and the Pedersoli site and I don’t find the answers to these questions, either. I have some printed resources, including one “reenactors guide” by David T.T. Smith which has a “nipple grid” showing all the different nipple sizes for a large number of original and reproduction guns, but I think the book pre-dates Pedersoli’s introduction of this rifle. I am hoping to hear from somebody who actually owns one.

However, I sincerely appreciate your efforts in searching for the answers!

Notchy Bob

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Notchy Bob, this isn't much help, but I was able to use the reference number from the Pedersoli illustrated parts breakdown to determine that the same nipple is used in the Enfield, Whitworth and Cook and Brothers Rifles.

https://shop.davide-pedersoli.com/e...ples-for-enfield-cook-brothers-volunteer.html
Wish I was as clever to be able to determine the length of pull. Probably have to print out the pictures of rifles with known length of pulls and determine the ratio of the length of pull to the Lorentz and come up with an estimated length of pull.

 

[maillemaker]

My friend has one. I do know they use standard 4-wing musket caps.

 

[springfield art]

My friend has one. I do know they use standard 4-wing musket caps.

Now have him measure Length of Pull!

 

[springfield art]

I recall reading there was great interest in this replica, esp. amongst Civil War enactors that re-created regiments that were armed with the Lorenz. The replica came out a bit late, as time and age catches up with everyone, and re-enacting kind of fell into a bit of a slump, esp. with the shut-downs, etc. But Pedersoli is to be thanked for making it, along with the Enfield musket that had all the "de-farbing" done right from the factory, which shut down several of the small cottage-industry fellows who were doing the de-farbing on Armi Sport and other muskets. Mr. Craig Barry was a consultant on the Enfield de-farb-from-the-factory muskets.

 

[maillemaker]

I believe I recall that the Pedersoli Lorenz has a fly in the tumbler also, whereas the originals did not.

 

[jrs51861]

According to the Dixie Gun Works 2022 printed catalog, page 35, the length of pull for the Lorenz rifle is listed as 13 3/4". However the catalog shows an incorrect listing for nipple size- 1/4 x 28.

In researching Pedersoli illustrated parts breakdowns, Grenadier1758 is correct on nipple interchangeability. Pedersoli uses four musket nipple sizes. 8 x 1, 8 x 1.25, 1/4 x 28, 5/16 x 24. 8 x 1.25 should be the correct nipple for the Lorenz.

 

[Notchy Bob]

According to the Dixie Gun Works 2022 printed catalog, page 35, the length of pull for the Lorenz rifle is listed as 13 3/4". However the catalog shows an incorrect listing for nipple size- 1/4 x 28.

In researching Pedersoli illustrated parts breakdowns, Grenadier1758 is correct on nipple interchangeability. Pedersoli uses four musket nipple sizes. 8 x 1, 8 x 1.25, 1/4 x 28, 5/16 x 24. 8 x 1.25 should be the correct nipple for the Lorenz.

Thank you. I don't have the printed Dixie catalog, and I appreciate your looking that up. They don't provide that information on their webpage.

Oddly enough, Dixie responded to my query this morning. Here is the question I submitted on their "Contact Us" page:

> I have two questions about the PR3156 Pedersoli M1854 Lorenz Rifle.
> First, what is the length of pull, buttplate to trigger? Second, what
> type of nipple does it have (thread size and type of cap)?
>
> Thank you!

Here is their response:

Trigger pull is 13 3/4".
Nipple thread 1/4 x 28, uses musket cap.

So, they provided the same specifications that @jrs51861 found in their catalog. I questioned the nipple size also, and based on the information found and provided by @Grenadier1758 (thank you!), cross referenced in Track of the Wolf's nipple chart, I also concluded the nipple would likely be 8mm x1.25.

Regarding length of pull, you really need to measure the actual firearm. However, if you have a clear, straight-on photograph and at least one definite measurement to go on, you can use basic algebra to make an estimate:

First, bring the image up on your computer screen. For this rifle, the photo on the Dixie Gun Works webpage is perfect, and they have provided us with a barrel length of 37". Click on that photo, and it will enlarge and be even clearer. Next, use a clear plastic ruler, hold it up against the screen of your monitor and measure the barrel, from muzzle to the back of the snail. It is easiest to use a metric ruler, so you can work with whole numbers instead of fractions. Anyway, the barrel in the image on my screen measured 207mm. Next, measure the length of pull on the picture. I got 78mm.

You then divide your LOP measure by the barrel length measurement: 78 divided by 207 equals .37681. That is the proportion of LOP to barrel length.

Multiply that by the known barrel length of 37": .37861 x 37" = 13.942

So, by calculation, the LOP would be 13.942", or pretty dang close to fourteen inches.

If you have a good picture, without any distortion in perspective, and if the known measurement they provide to you is accurate, you can get a pretty good estimation this way. However, it is best to corroborate that by measuring the actual gun. Dixie tells us the LOP is 13.75", but considering their statement on the nipple size, I would want to double check. Some reproductions are pretty true to the originals with respect to LOP, while others are not. I have an original M1863 Springfield and an older Pedersoli/Navy Arms reproduction, and they both measure right at 13-3/8". However, we have a relic condition Brown Bess in the family that has a 13" LOP, but the Dixie website says the Pedersoli Brown Bess reproduction has an LOP of 14-12", which is quite a difference. I don't know the specs on the original M1854 Lorenz, but I would not expect it to be over 13-1/2". I can handle a 14" LOP if I'm wearing a light shirt, but it's a stretch. A length of pull between 13" and 13-1/2" is most comfortable.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded! I appreciate the help.

Notchy Bob

 

[Stantheman86]

Pedersoli has been known to use 1/4x28 nipple threads. Both my Pedersoli 1816 Springfield percussion conversion and Harper's Ferry percussion pistol use 1/4x28, as well as an older Pedersoli 1863 Springfield I used to own. So Dixie may not be wrong.

Nipples are cheap so it would be irrelevant to me.

Aren't these a .547 caliber and need a special bullet, like the Pedersoli 1857 Mauser?

Civil War reenacting and muzzleloader matches are enormously huge in Hungary and other European nations, and I think this Lorenz was made more for European match shooting than American Civil War reenactors. It's part of their "Silver Line" of match rifles. They were less concerned with making a 100% correct repro and more concerned with fulfilling the "military style muzzleloading match rifle" niche

Original Lorenz rifles were made by several manufacturers and there were differences among them. Some of the originals used by the North and South were so clapped out they couldn't reliably pop a percussion cap , and overall, soldiers tended to hate the Lorenz mostly because purchasing agents were sold rifles that had seen hard use in European wars and/or contract produced rifles made in Belgium that were more of a knockoff of the Lorenz, and were inferior to the Austrian made rifles.

There was a repro made in Slovakia , in years past, that Dixie used to list but it's been years since I've seen or even heard of one.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@StanTheMan

Thank you for your comments. In post #10, @jrs51861 reported that Pedersoli uses four sizes of nipples, and he listed 1/4x28 among them. We deduced from the available information that the 8mm x1.25 would be the likeliest candidate for the M1854 Lorenz, but we don't know for sure. One reason I started this thread in the first place was to find someone who actually has one of these rifles to tell us, but if anyone on this forum owns one, he hasn't weighed in yet. In any event, 1/4x28 nipples for musket caps are available, and Pedersoli lists them on their nipple page. The just don't say what rifle they are for. I also looked at the exploded diagram for this rifle, and the code or reference number shown for the nipple dies not match any of the SKU numbers for any of the nipples shown on the Pedersoli website. So, I guess the jury is still out on this.

I didn't think of it before, but I just checked and Buffalo Arms also sells this rifle. Their description also indicates the nipple is 1/4x28. I guess it's possible.

Aren't these a .547 caliber and need a special bullet, like the Pedersoli 1857 Mauser?

Yes, that is my understanding. It is a compression bullet, not a Minie. I don't have an image of the bullet handy, but here is a mould block:

The annular grooves are quite deep, and the bullet compresses on itself to "bump up" and engage the rifling. The Minie system calls for a hollow-based bullet, and when the powder charge detonates, the skirt opens up to engage the grooves in the barrel. Different strategies to address the same issue.

I remember the Slovakian Lorenz rifles Dixie used to carry. They were shorter than this one, and did not have a ramrod. I never handled one, but remember seeing them in the catalog.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Grenadier1758]

When we look at the Pedersoli illustrated parts diagram for the 1854 Lorentz Rifle we see that the nipple has a reference number of 0800008118. There is no matching SKU number or catalog number in the Pedersoli accessories catalog. What we do have is the same reference number is called out for the Whitworth, Enfield, Cook and Brother, and Volunteer in their illustrated parts diagram. We can find the nipples called out for those rifles and the nipple is 8x1.25.

I would tend to want to trust the Pedersoli references rather than Dixie or other vendors.

 

[Notchy Bob]

When we look at the Pedersoli illustrated parts diagram for the 1854 Lorentz Rifle we see that the nipple has a reference number of 0800008118. There is no matching SKU number or catalog number in the Pedersoli accessories catalog. What we do have is the same reference number is called out for the Whitworth, Enfield, Cook and Brother, and Volunteer in their illustrated parts diagram. We can find the nipples called out for those rifles and the nipple is 8x1.25.

I would tend to want to trust the Pedersoli references rather than Dixie or other vendors.

Thank you. I now understand how you arrived at that conclusion.

We wonder where the vendors got their information. It is confusing. My reason for asking was that some close up photographs I saw somewhere (I don't remember where) appeared to show a smaller cone or tube than would be expected on a military arm. However, that only makes things more confusing at this point, as there are nipples with musket sized threads and reduced size tubes, as well as nipples with sporting-sized threads and tubes for musket caps.

One of us just needs to get our hands on one of these rifles and check it out!

Notchy Bob

 

[maillemaker]

If you email Mark Hubbs at Eras Gone Bullet Molds he has one of the Pedersoli Lorenz muskets and can tell you about it.

https://www.erasgonebullets.com/

 

[Eras Gone]

Here is my unboxing video on the Lorenz.

The rifle is accurate and has the best trigger of any military musket I've owned. The tumbler has a fly and over all a light crisp trigger. Mine does very well with the Moose .547 Wilkinson bullet, but I've had good luck with other minnies sized to .547.

What I don't like: The thick bowling ball finish on the walnut (originals were beechwood, BTW) and the weird patented breech. The chamber is about 2 inches long and only 9mm in diameter. I have to use a pistol cleaning brush to get into the chamber. I cannot figure out why they put this on the musket. Of course the original did not have a patented breech.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Here is my unboxing video on the Lorenz.

The rifle is accurate and has the best trigger of any military musket I've owned. The tumbler has a fly and over all a light crisp trigger. Mine does very well with the Moose .547 Wilkinson bullet, but I've had good luck with other minnies sized to .547.

What I don't like: The thick bowling ball finish on the walnut (originals were beechwood, BTW) and the weird patented breech. The chamber is about 2 inches long and only 9mm in diameter. I have to use a pistol cleaning brush to get into the chamber. I cannot figure out why they put this on the musket. Of course the original did not have a patented breech.

@Eras Gone ,

That was a nice video. Thanks for posting!

However, we still have two questions that remain unanswered, if you don't mind helping us out here:

First, what is the actual length of pull?

Second, what is the diameter and thread pitch of the nipple? The vendors tell us it is 1/4 x 28. Pedersoli does not specifically say, but information gleaned from the Pedersoli website suggests the nipple is 8mm x 1.25. What can you tell us?

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

 

[Eras Gone]

I don't know the nipple thread, but I do know that it is the standard nipple that they use on all of their muskets and rifle muskets.

LOP appears to be 13.75 from trigger to heal of butt.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I don't know the nipple thread, but I do know that it is the standard nipple that they use on all of their muskets and rifle muskets.

LOP appears to be 13.75 from trigger to heal of butt.

Thank you!

Notchy Bob