Pedersoli Flintlocks: yea or nay (HC and stuff)

[Armando]

I've been looking at a few Pedersoli models to use for reenactment events as I wait out and hope for a good quality Charleville or Brown Bess. My concerns are two-fold:
- some folks believe they are not historically accurate enough (have heard different reasons) for Rev War (my persona is an older French & Indian War veteran fighting with militia in Rev War).
- other folks say that for the price you can avoid the issues with Pedersoli flintlocks (mostly I hear about issues with the lock)

What say you?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
This may help with the Pedersoli Brown Bess:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
dave

 

[hanshi]

They are generally very good muzzleloaders and fine shooters. But they are not especially correct as far as originals are concerned. BUT they are close and can be modified to be very close.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They are generally very good muzzleloaders and fine shooters. But they are not especially correct as far as originals are concerned. BUT they are close and can be modified to be very close.

Yes I found in an online auction a "rusty" Pedersoli Bess, that had the side plate swapped out for an protruding sideplate akin to a Long Land Pattern Bess, AND the owner had the engraving on the lock changed from "Grice 1762" to "Grice 1752". The forward "trumpet" ramrod thimble is still there though. Luckily..., the "rusty" look put on it by the previous owner scared off other buyers, and a bath in Evaporust returned it to a condition that His Royal Britannic Majesty would approve.

GOD SAVE THE KING!

Sorry..., where was I ?.....

What I object to is that for the price of $1350.00 plus the $150 for the bayonet, that's a factory made $1500.00 musket that didn't exist in the F&I, even after being transformed as mine is. It sorta looks like it should. However, IF Pedersoli switched over to a LLP Bess, that Bess was still being used up into the 1790's, and if they chose a 1748 version with "improvements", it would work for both the AWI and F&I. The fellows in Europe doing Waterloo I believe are also wrong if they use the Pedersoli Short Land Pattern Bess. I mean Pedersoli has known for about three decades that the musket isn't "right"...., they simply see no need to fix the situation.....

LD

 

[chiller]

Yes I found in an online auction a "rusty" Pedersoli Bess, that had the side plate swapped out for an protruding sideplate akin to a Long Land Pattern Bess, AND the owner had the engraving on the lock changed from "Grice 1762" to "Grice 1752". The forward "trumpet" ramrod thimble is still there though. Luckily..., the "rusty" look put on it by the previous owner scared off other buyers, and a bath in Evaporust returned it to a condition that His Royal Britannic Majesty would approve.

GOD SAVE THE KING!

Sorry..., where was I ?.....

What I object to is that for the price of $1350.00 plus the $150 for the bayonet, that's a factory made $1500.00 musket that didn't exist in the F&I, even after being transformed as mine is. It sorta looks like it should. However, IF Pedersoli switched over to a LLP Bess, that Bess was still being used up into the 1790's, and if they chose a 1748 version with "improvements", it would work for both the AWI and F&I. The fellows in Europe doing Waterloo I believe are also wrong if they use the Pedersoli Short Land Pattern Bess. I mean Pedersoli has known for about three decades that the musket isn't "right"...., they simply see no need to fix the situation.....

LD

I

I've been looking at a few Pedersoli models to use for reenactment events as I wait out and hope for a good quality Charleville or Brown Bess. My concerns are two-fold:
- some folks believe they are not historically accurate enough (have heard different reasons) for Rev War (my persona is an older French & Indian War veteran fighting with militia in Rev War).
- other folks say that for the price you can avoid the issues with Pedersoli flintlocks (mostly I hear about issues with the lock)

What say you?

Armando, I did reenacting in the F&I time period for just over 12 years with a Pedersoli Brown Bess purchased from Cabelas back in 1998 for the price of around 700.00. Never had ANYONE object to this Brown Bess and my regiment went to places that, as a group, were "juryed", or judged by officials as to authenticity. Places like Fort Trycondaroga, Fort Niagara, and many others. Yes, there were two people that we came across in all those years with a custom made period correct muskets and paid well over 2,000.00. This is the main reason the Pedersoli can pass inspection by officials. That being said, I do not believe you should have any issue using a Brown Bess for Rev. War reenacting. Pedersoli did made a Charleville style musket that the French reenactors use and is close to the time period. For the REV. War, do as they would have done, use what was on hand for military portrayal (Brown Bess) or do you research in what area of the country you would be from and locate a musket the local civilian might use, musket/rifle. Sounds like you have worked on developing a persona. Stay with your persona and you will be good.

The only problem that I have witnessed with the Pedersoli B.B. is the main spring and frizen. If the main lock spring breaks at an event, your finished until you can find a replacement and they were not easy to find as all Pedersoli's do not use the same spring. They are not interchangeable and have slight changes every few years of production. You must match-up your spring with the replacement and not over the internet but, in person, or risk not getting a correct replacement. The other possible problem is the frizen can lose spark or actually slowly lose hardness and the frizen needs to be case hardened. I was lucky that at an event, a blacksmith knew how to re-harden it but, it can be tricky and over-hardening is easy to do, and you will not get any spark if too hard. To be on the safe side, I carried a spare main spring and factory spare frizen. Other than the two issues I pointed out, the Pedersoli is hard working. I ran through 300-500 rounds every month during each summer for slightly more than 12 years, and I never had the mainspring brake on me. Hope this helps you.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I am just grateful I don't have to rely on commercial repros. Here are some examples of historically correct muskets I built based on the Brown Bess design and exhibiting the details and quality expected on original muskets that meet British standards. Compare these with any commercial repro. The links provide a wealth of historical detail and information. The first is an upgraded pattern 1730 Bess that represents the most common version of that musket to be used in North America during the first few years of the F&I war.
Pattern 1730 Brown Bess almost ready for inspection
The second is a colonial New Jersey militia musket made in NJ using old British commercial musket parts but upgraded for a steel rammer:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/colonial-american-militia-musket-in-progress.107892/The third is a pattern 1760 light infantry carbine:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ish-pattern-1760-light-infantry-fusil.116956/
As I demonstrated in my previous post, a Pedersoli Bess can be improved to be more historically correct up to a point. However, when worked over, they are decent guns. None of the modern repros, Pedersoli, Miroku, or India-made guns would actually pass 18th century British ordnance inspection.

dave

dave

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I had a Buck last year that objected to my Muzzle loader not being H/C.
He lost the argument.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I had a Buck last year that objected to my Muzzle loader not being H/C.
He lost the argument.

Nobody that I know of has objected to how they shoot.

LD

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Yes, they can shoot pretty well with some work on the locks but the OP's initial question was about the historical correctness of Pedersoli muskets.

dave

 

[Van1955]

Let no one judge unless they were around at the time.

 

[YJake]

Not very HC, but can be worked over to be close if that’s your thing. Still fun to shoot though.

Brown Bess

And my .54 Kentucky

-Jake

 

[tenngun]

What can you live with?
Or what does the group you wish to join require?

My Centermark TFC. It’s my favorite gun and it had gone to historic events without issue
But....
The locks not right, the barrel is to thick and too short, they didn’t have rear sights, the turtle front sight is not correct, ramrod pipes are wrong, it’s on maple.....
I can live with that.
At some point any gun made today would be wrong.
We want as close as we can get, we accept that we can’t have a perfect copy of an origanal. Can you accept the differences
Can a group you join accept the differences?
A couple of years ago I was to an 1812 event. All the company of soldiers at the fort had Indian made Springfield muskets. It didn’t change the event for me, but it wasn’t fully historically correct.
On the other hand they wouldn’t have accepted a ‘61 or any percussion gun, or a bess, they had rules any one who wished to join had to follow.

 

[chiller]

Hi,
I am just grateful I don't have to rely on commercial repros. Here are some examples of historically correct muskets I built based on the Brown Bess design and exhibiting the details and quality expected on original muskets that meet British standards. Compare these with any commercial repro. The links provide a wealth of historical detail and information. The first is an upgraded pattern 1730 Bess that represents the most common version of that musket to be used in North America during the first few years of the F&I war.
Pattern 1730 Brown Bess almost ready for inspection
The second is a colonial New Jersey militia musket made in NJ using old British commercial musket parts but upgraded for a steel rammer:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/colonial-american-militia-musket-in-progress.107892/The third is a pattern 1760 light infantry carbine:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...ish-pattern-1760-light-infantry-fusil.116956/
As I demonstrated in my previous post, a Pedersoli Bess can be improved to be more historically correct up to a point. However, when worked over, they are decent guns. None of the modern repros, Pedersoli, Miroku, or India-made guns would actually pass 18th century British ordnance inspection.

dave

dave

You are correct, none of today's commercial brown bess muskets would have passed 18 century British Ordnance Inspections.
However, we are not in the 18 century and any re-enactor portraying a F&I participant will be good with a modern Pedersoli. I would not recommend any of the Brown Bess's made in India. Have never seen a Miroku to form any opinion.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes, they can shoot pretty well with some work on the locks but the OP's initial question was about the historical correctness of Pedersoli muskets.

My point exactly, and the previous comment to which I replied was, "I had a Buck last year that objected to my Muzzle loader not being H/C. He lost the argument. " Which correctly implies that HC doesn't matter when hunting, and I pointed out in my reply that "Nobody that I know of has objected to how they shoot".

LD

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Personally, I don't care what subjective level of acceptance of historical accuracy one applies except when they willfully misrepresent something. However, the OP asked what were the issues relative to historical accuracy and I provided the facts and as we all know, "facts are stubborn things".

dave

 

[Kansas Jake]

Dave, so are many folks. There is a resistance to accepting facts.