PC/HC subforum

Discussion in 'Forum Announcements & Support' started by Black Hand, Jan 17, 2019.

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum by donating:

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jan 26, 2019 #141

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    So can you provide some evidence of how kilts were closed in early eighteenth century? I can see at least one brooch in aneighteenth century painting of highlanders.
    So this is one thing that worried me about your idea. A “I don’t know what’s correct but your ideas are wrong” sort of thing.
     
  2. Jan 26, 2019 #142

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    Was there something required to close kilts in the early 18th Century?
    I merely posted information on Celtic pins that refuted your position. As I didn't make the claim, the burden of proof isn't mine...it is up to you to support YOUR claim.

    Interesting read https://reconstructinghistory.com/the-evolution-of-the-kilt-the-18th-century-and-the-kilt/
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  3. Jan 26, 2019 #143

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    If it’s not held closed it it falls off your shoulder and just hangs on your belt. Try it with your match coat. Put on, pin,put on belt, then pull the pin your match coat just falls off. So they had to pin the kilt with something.... or use a hand to hold it together.
     
  4. Jan 26, 2019 #144

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    Ok - so you aren't talking about keeping the kilt closed (as kilt pins are currently used), merely how the material is held at the shoulder while wearing a great-kilt. I don't know - but could easily have been tied with a string or thong. I believe our thinking has been polluted by the movies we see and everyone expects some sort of fancy clan brooch. Maybe we can figure this out....

    In the image below, nothing visible holds the plaid at the shoulder.

    Highland_soldier_1744.jpg
    A private and corporal of a Highland Regiment, circa 1744. The private is wearing a belted plaid in the Government tartan. Note how the plaid is being used to protect the musket lock from rain and wind. (Via WikiCommons)

    More information & images at https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/debunking-the-myths-about-kilts/
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  5. Jan 26, 2019 #145

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    Can a Moderator move the discussion of Kilt pins to an appropriate subforum? I'd like to continue this discussion, but I don't think this is the proper place...
     
  6. Jan 26, 2019 #146

    azmntman

    azmntman

    azmntman

    75 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2013
    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    358
    Location:
    Northern AZ
    What do Kilts have to do with traditional muzzle loading? Just askin??....I have a buddy dresses up in em yearly and gets overly joyful with others of his interest
     
  7. Jan 26, 2019 #147

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    The Black Watch were known to wear kilts during the AWI. That is the only recollection I have about kilts relating to traditional muzzleloading in the Colonies. However, muzzleloaders were also used in Scotland & Ireland and kilts were worn at the time (or at least part of the time). So still "Traditional" but not traditional for wear in the Colonies by Colonials...
     
  8. Jan 26, 2019 #148

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Nothing except the way my this spun off when we are trying to talk about what’s HC and what’s not. I mentioned Celtic pins inpassing. Black Hand tried to bring in a point on research, or lack there of. Suddenly we spun off on an histoic area with little information.
    And there in is a problem. Joe says X and we start talking about X, but X didn’t exist in a vacuum but was used with Y and some one says something Y and suddenly were taking abou Y and of course X and Y was used with Z. And so on.
     
  9. Jan 26, 2019 #149

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Nothing is seen holding the kilt at the shoulder, nor is there seen a trigger guard or swivels on the fore stock, nor have I seen any Historic butt plate on a musket that looks like that, or a buckle on the belt.
    I can show lots of ships paintings where you can’t see sheets ,clew lines , braces, but instead just some random lines looking like ropes going in random directions.
    I don’t think that cartoon tells us anything at all. I would put it with backgrounds in Miller’s paintings that show horses the size of tipis.
     
  10. Jan 26, 2019 #150

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    If they go through the hassle of showing fine detail on the basket-hilt, sporran and dirk - why would they omit something as visible and significant as a brooch holding the plaid at the shoulder? One image doesn't clinch it, but several images certainly do suggest nothing could be an option.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  11. Jan 26, 2019 #151

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    So how did it stay up, can you demonstrate it. The part of the cloth in front and the part in the back both laid on your shoulder just fall off. It won’t stayon your shoulder by it self. If you just used tie it’s unlikly it could resist when you used the sinus at the sides( a pocket formed by the folds of the upper part of the kilt. But a tie isn’t shown on that cartoon either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  12. Jan 26, 2019 #152

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    So what you are suggesting is that a leather thong tied around the plaid wouldn't be strong enough? I don't really buy that....
     
  13. Jan 26, 2019 #153

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Do you see a tie on that cartoon? Did you ever wear a great kilt? If not try it with your match coat. Pull it on to form a hood, a kilt was worn that same way, where do you tie a thong to hold your hood and front together?
    Let the top fall so you are held just by your belt pull the right half and left half, hold those end together on one shoulder and tie it with a thong. You now form a sinus pocket on your side. Toss stuff unit and take a walk. Does it hold together?
    Pull it up over both shoulders but no hood up, again where do you put your tie?
    You can see a brooch on the paining of the Scott’s charge of Colluden, this painting was done contemporarly with the battle.
     
  14. Jan 26, 2019 #154

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    The main part of the great-kilt was held at the waist with a belt (just like wearing a blanket as a matchcoat) and the end brought up pver the shoulder could be tied. This will form a pocket that will hold stuff. If it falls apart as you seem to be claiming, I suspect the kilt would fall around your ankles.
    Curious - have you ever pleated and worn a Great-kilt?
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AC50D62F129DA2D87E57AC50D62F129D&&FORM=VRDGAR
    Instead of the brooch, tie with a thong...
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...CB524D906CF7A7C9E3B0CB524D906CF7&&FORM=VRDGAR
    The pockets are formed from material before anything goes over the shoulder in this video.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  15. Jan 26, 2019 #155

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Yes I have worn one a time or two. The kilt wasn’t just worn over one shoulder. You could let it all fall from belt level and pull up end stuffing them in your beltgiving you two skirts. Pull up front and back over a shoulder, or over both shoulders to form a coat top, or over head so form a hood, or pulled up just in back and folded on sides to form pockets without any thing in front, or to your neck behind and edges free and pull the free ends around cape like but you could instantly have it out of the way in the front.
     
  16. Jan 26, 2019 #156

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    So a tie isn't really out of the question, is it?
     
  17. Jan 26, 2019 #157

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

    Juice Jaws

    54 Cal. MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,605
    Likes Received:
    548
    Location:
    Near Yosemite Park
    I just have no idea why two PC/HC forums " Frontier Folk and Historical Trekking went by the way side. Very odd.
     
    dave61965 likes this.
  18. Jan 26, 2019 #158

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,375
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Yes it is. It’s pretty hard to hold ends together on you shoulder with one hand while tieing with the other. Then getting it to work in any other configuration becomes unworkable. Try it with your match coat, save for pleating a kilt and a match coat are almost the same. A pleated kilt gives you more fabric to work with.
    Do you pin your match coat or attempt to tie it?
     
  19. Jan 26, 2019 #159

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Black Hand

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,349
    Likes Received:
    740
    I've used a bone pin at the throat, though a couple of ties (permanently installed) would do the job. The pin is made from a 3-4 inch sliver of deer leg bone (with a blunt point that goes through the weave without snagging) that is smoothed and polished.
     
  20. Jan 26, 2019 #160

    Claude Mathis

    Claude Mathis

    Claude Mathis

    Cannon MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2001
    Messages:
    14,025
    Likes Received:
    87
    Location:
    Cardiff, CA
    Yeah, that works great until you don't accept their "evidence". Again, you have about 50 forums right now and they offer everything needed to discuss it all. The fact that some people don't work well with others won't be fixed by adding more forums.

    There's a reason that this forum has over 30,000 members while others have faded away.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

arrow_white