Pattern Density of Cylinder Bore

[Twice boom]

Very informative Read. Thank you very much and I hope you do not mind if I conceder you a blood brother from here on out. :wink:
Thanks.
Twice..

 

[Moose_Owner]

Twice,

I would be honored.

One other thing. I have started using "Japanese Tissue Paper" for attaching the over the shot wad to the cartridge. The Japanese Tissue Paper shrinks when it drys and creates a better bond. I am working on an updated post showing how I make the cartridges with the new paper.

 

[Twice boom]

Again thank you ..
I will be looking forward to your post.

I made a shot belt out of leather to hold my pre measured loads . Unfortunately I have not got around to buy a wood lath to make my shot and powder quick loaders. My father had a set of those loaders(don’t know if they were HC) back when we lived in Greece. Like everything else of his ,including his single shot Muzzleloader was sold before I was old enough . So now I am left on my own at coming up with something similar.
Today I been in the basement making some quick loaders out of PVC pipe :>( to make due for my up coming hunting trip. I'm making them to take an ounce and a quarter of shot, and the same volume of powder, although I Only shoot an ounce and an eighth. Never know.
More likely than not I will donate them to a kind soul when ever I get around making the keepers....

Thanks.
Twice

 

[CoyoteJoe]

very interesting Moose, you obviously put thought and effort into your testing. I would like to know how you "converted" the 20 yard patterns into 40 yard percentages. I have observed that 40 yard patterns seem to shrink or swell at the rate of 10% for each five yards closer or farther. I might extend that extrapolation to 10 yards either side of the 40 yard standard but 20 yards is just stretching extrapolation too far for even a wild guess. So how DID you arrive at those 40 yard percentages from 20 yard patterns and why didn't you just fire them at 40 yards?

 

[Moose_Owner]

I use some free software from www.shotguninsight.com for my patterning work. The software is pretty old and clunky, but it takes a lot of the work out of patterning. You take a picture of the pattern with a digital camera and the software counts the pellet strikes (after some clean up). The pictures of the patterns which I post are generated by the software.

You can also "scale" the patterns to simulate different distances. In my case, I pattern the gun at 20 or 30 yards and then adjust the patterns to 40 yards in order to get the pattern density in a 30 inch circle at the standard 40 yard range.

The software assumes that the pellets fly straight between 20 and 40 yards. As a result, the software probably tends to overstate the actual pattern density because not all of the pellets will fly straight. However, based on the testing which I have done, the software does a pretty good job of simulating patterns at different distances (within reason). I think that most of the real fliers get weeded out in the first 20 yards.

I pattern the gun at 20 or 30 yards for a couple of reasons. First, I am primarily a skeet shooter. Most of my shots are under 20 yards. Second, the software designer recommends that you pattern at a closer range than 40 yards. That way you capture most of the pellets on the sheet of patterning paper giving you a more accurate total pellet count. Finally, I am too lazy (read fat) to walk 40 yards to change my patterning paper.

 

[Moose_Owner]

CoyoteJoe,

Your post made me dig a little deeper regarding the "scaling" of the shotgun patterns to simulate a 40 yard pattern. There actually appears to be some science behind the software. The Shotgun Insight Website cites an article titled: Range-of-fire estimates from regression analysis applied to the spreads of shotgun pellet patterns: Results of a blind study, by W.F. Rowe and S.R. Hanson

If you Google the article title, you will find an abstract of the actual article. According to the abstract at ranges between 10 and 50 feet, there is a very strong linear correlation between the size of the pattern and the distance. While the test distances are a little short, the study does lend support to what the software is doing.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

I unfortunately have not had such great results yet with my 12 gauge cylinder bore gun using the 75 gr. FFg and 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot load. My patterning tests suggested that it would be good but the South Dakota pheasants disagreed. I did use the cloth cup system and this seems to add a bit of pattern consistancy; so far I think the cloth cup is best at keeping bore leading away. My standard for comparison is modern loads of 1 1/8 oz. #6 shot from a light modified choke 16 gauge barrel- I know this works very well indeed. It is very possible that my shooting is to blame, as perhaps I have not yet adjusted properly to the slightly slower lock time and shot speed of the muzzleloading shotgun. I am becoming inclined however to follow the advice of Mr. Starr from Eden, South Dakota (who was an old-timer) and am considering jug choking for the barrels.

 

[Moose_Owner]

I unfortunately have not had such great results yet with my 12 gauge cylinder bore gun using the 75 gr. FFg and 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot load.

Golfswithwolves,

A jug choke is a good idea. However, your load is pretty mild load for pheasants. An equal volume of shot and powder load would be 3 drams of FFg (82 grains) and 1 1/4 ounce of shot. According to the Lyman Handbook, 82 grains of FFg should produce velocities of approximately 920 fps with 1 1/4 ounce of lead. Your load was probably producing less than 900 fps.

My preference is to use less shot in favor of higher velocities. If you can maintain good pattern densities, I would go with 1 ounce of lead and 75 grains of FFg. That should give you velocities of about 1100 fps. The extra velocity makes a huge difference when it comes to killing pheasants.

In addition, if you are getting good patterns, you might consider moving up to Number 4 shot. The larger pellets will penetrate better on the big birds.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I guess I'm missing something here Moose. I really don't see how an 87% pattern at 20 yards could become a 61% pattern at 40 yards. When I count holes in paper it is impossible to say whether one or several pellets have passed through the same hole. That is not really a big factor once the pattern has opened up, it's not likely that many pellets will hit the exact same spot at 40 yards but at 20 yards a full choke pattern will be so tight as to be impossible to get an accurate count. It seems your software would have the same problem.
Your software does indeed seem a wonderful way to avoid counting all those tiny little holes but since you have put the time and effort into shooting those patterns I think I would fire at least a few at the standard 40 yard mark just to confirm that the software assumptions are reasonable, IF they are reasonable. I think a lot of things happen in that second half of the pellet's journey. I doubt that a linear progression from 10 to 50 feet says anything at all as to expectations at 40 yards. Never the less, I will have to check out that software, it seems a real time and labor saver.

 

[Twice boom]

If you assume that more than one shot will enter the same hole at twenty yards than the simple solution would be to know the number of shots for a particular load then count the shots outside the circle. Subtract those from the know shot count and there you have it.

Personally speaking I do not pattern my double gun further than twenty five yards and I do not count shot either. I shoot, I turn the paper skywards for a better look at the spread. If it looks nice and even I am good to go if it looks too cluttered to one side then I worry . But my main concern is knowing the affective killing spread my gun puts out .. I hate crippling game ..
Twice.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If a fabric cup was ONLY good for eliminating bore leading, it would be worth doing.

However, the comments of the 3 members who have tried this idea before you suggest that the fabric works better the thicker it is. Makesumsmoke posted pictures of his spent "Pillow ticking" cup strips, and they clearly show holes where the shot pellets rubbed holes through the thin cloth. Mattress ticking came through without the holes.

You can also LINE these cups with a strip of card stock( Index cards) cut to be the length of the circumference of the inside of the cup, and wide enough to cover the length of the load of shot you use. The card stock is tough, but with the support of the fabric between it and the bore, you eliminate distorting pellet( flats) , and leave those pellets IN the Pattern Down Range.

My personal experience when pellets are allowed to rub against the bore, and put flats on those outside pellets, is that the pellets with flats rarely make it to a 20 yd. target. This is not a problem when bunny hunting, at closer ranges in thick brush. But it is, if you are hunting skiddish pheasants on a windy day.I have calculated the retained pellet energy of a #5 shot pellet, using the Lyman tables, and it has more than enough energy to kill pheasants past 35 yards, out of a cylinder bore gun, using the 2 3/4 dram load of powder. However, I find nothing wrong with using 3 drams, or reducing the shot load down from the 1 1/4 oz. load I found worked so well in my particular gun.

When the "new " Olympic shotgun shells came out- 24 grams( 3-4 pellets less than a 7/8 oz. load of #7--Not #7 1/2 shot), and 2 1/4 dram equivalent powder loads, a very fine, Champion level Trap shooter friend of mine bought a case of the shells to test in his gun. Talk about SPEED! He was getting 93+% patterns at 40 yds. in a 30 inch circle shooting his Remington 1100 shotgun with a full choke, and he found no need to "lead" the flying clay targets at all from handicap yardage. Just put the bead on the bird, and slap the trigger. He said the shot got to the target so fast, it surprised him. I later had the opportunity to watch him shoot some clay targets with those load at the local club, and he was Not exaggerating.

So, reducing the shot load might just give you additional speed. My only caution is that you really don't want to go above the speed of sound, even if you can do so using any BP brand, or load. The Transonic Zone does all kinds of nasty things to pellets with air turbulance, resulting from drag factors on each pellet, front, back, and on the sides, of a load. If you read the Lyman charts, all that extra velocity is lost in the first 20 yards, leaving no real longer range benefit. And, when you think of it, that extra velocity simply is not needed inside 20 yds. We can't fool MOTHER NATURE. A round pellet or ball has the same B.C. no matter how fast we move it.

With a choked barrel, such loads tend to widen patterns quickly. That is what you want when shooting Skeet- but its not going to help you at much in pheasant hunting, where longer shots are the norm, and the winds are blowing.

That is also the reason to use larger shot rather than smaller for this kind of hunting. The lighter(smaller) shot sizes tend to be more easily blown off POA than the heavier(larger) shot sizes, MV being equal. :hmm:

 

[tg]

A bit off topic but does anyone make paper shot cups/tubes with a glue gun or super glue for a .58? if so what size dowel and type of paper do you use I was thinking of post-its for paper. I won't likely hunt with them but am curious how they compare to the wasp nest wadding or my other similar methods, Thanks in advance

 

[Twice boom]

TG. I have yet to make a shot cup.
I see were it could be advantageous for late season rooster and sharp tail hunting but for what I hunt I do not think the time invested to make them would be worth my while. Of course that does not mean I wouldn’t mind learning how to make them for the experience sake. I like learning new things that might expend my knowledge. What is wasp nest wedding.

Twice.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have not made paper shot cups for a 24 gauge gun. However, I did a lot of work with my 12 gauge, so I can offer you some tips in using Post-It note paper, that will save you some of my errors. :surrender: :thumbsup:

The first problem is to find something the right size for a forming Mandrill. No one makes .54" dowels. I would( being cheap) take my caliper to a local office supply store, and look at the various tube-shaped pens, markers, flow pens, etc. and see if I could not find some smooth pen with the right outside diameter to use as the "MANDRILL", to form the cups.

If not, I would get a dowel in the nearest larger size- 5/8"- at the hardware store, or hobby shop, and file or turn it down to size. ( Woodshops have the needed equipment. If you are friends with the owner, and impress him by removing rings, necklaces, and wrist watches in front of him before you go near his power equipment, he may just let you use a lathe to turn down your mandrill to size. Take your own calipers. I have not met any professional worker who likes loaning his tools to anyone, even within his own shop. Take your own shop apron with you( and wash it if you buy it new, so It at least looks like you have worn it before!) Take ear plugs, and safety glasses, too.)

You are wanting to make a cup to fit inside a .570 diameter bore. The cup has to be SMALLER. PLEASE, Don't ask me how I know that is important. Thank you! :thumbsup:

I am thinking that a .54-56 caliber mandrill, and either 28 gauge OS cards, or the smaller .50" OS card wads can be used, along with 24 ga.( .579" bore) cards, or wads, in loading your shotgun.

I formed a cylinder over a properly sized mandrill( a magic marker, of all things), with 2 wraps of the Post-it note paper around the mandrill, with the glue strip holding the cylinder together. ( You have to cut the post-it Note paper to proper size for this to work.)

I put a smaller sized OS card(16 ga.)( If you have them, you can use a felt wad) inside the end of the tube- which is extended 1/2" beyond the end of the mandrill for this purpose),to become a form to keep the cylinder/tube, concentric. I then folded over the ends of the tube to close in behind the OS card. Some people glue the end. A .54 cal. OS card should fit inside a .58 cal. shotcup.

Some tape the ends over. I don't want tape rubbing against the bore, leaving petroleum based glues, and plastics, in my barrel.

What I did to SEAL the ends of the cup over that OS card was to dip the paper cup into melted wax( I used paraffin, but have beeswax to use the next time.) I let the wax come up the cup about 1/2" or the depth of my cat food( tuna) can. Then I removed the cup from the molten wax, and place it on wax paper on my kitchen counter, next to the stove where all this "witches Alchemy" was being done-- and held( with downward pressure on the mandrill) the folded ends closed until the wax cooled- about 5-10 seconds.

Then I removed the paper cup from the mandrill, and repeated the process.

This makes the basic cup for you. How long it is, or whether you slit it( ala modern plastic shotcups), will be up to you.

I found that using Post-it note paper and 2 layers for the wrap the shot separates from the cup just fine. 3 layers turned it into a SLUG!, however. :shocked2:

And only 1 layer just made confetti in front of the barrel, and terrible patterns.

I found that I had to lube the bore with a greased cleaning patch, to get more consistent patterns. I ran the greased patch down on top of the OS card, as I pushed the shot cup with shot in it, down the bore. This saved movement and time loading the gun. The cleaning patch comes out of the barrel, leaving the bore clean, and greased. That protects the bore from rusting, and helps the paper shot cup SLIDE over the bore, rather than rubbing against it.

Of course, the paper cup prevents the lead shot pellets from touching the sides of the bore, so you get no lead streaks to mess with subsequent shot patterns. Not much of an issue hunting, but makes a big difference on the clay target ranges.

Patterns? In my 12 gauge, I saw a bit of improvement in the patterns using the cups. From cylinder bore, I got at least Improved Cylinder, and some that were Skeet 2 patterns, as far as choke. I figured the paper shot cup gave me an extra five yards, and perhaps a bit more.

Mine were made with slits, and I need to do more work with paper cups without slits to see if I can get the cups and shot to both separate reliably, and give tighter patterns. I think I may have made my slits too long, and that I will get better( tighter) patterns, if the slits don't exceed 1/4" in length.

Oh, The wax melts in the barrel, and helps lubricate, and keep the BP residue soft for cleaning. The Barrel( and any cleaning patch you run down) looks "wet", but it was not condensation, but the melted wax that was the source of the Liquid that made them look wet. Interesting. Unexpected, BTW.

If you want a flat surface to Push the shot from your cup, that is why you insert the OS card, or wad, into the bottom of the cup when forming it. I used OS cards, as I want a flat, hard, surface to push the shot from the muzzle Equally.

Soft "cushion" and wool wads have a nasty habit of letting pellets stick into them. Its only a few, but I want all the shot to leave the barrel as a group, with those pellets in back pushing the pellets in front, for consistency. I am also Cheap- I said that, I am sure. I don't like 10-20% of my lead pellets hitting the ground inside 20 yards, before they ever get to the target I am aiming to hit.( the total number of shot pellets damaged by rubbing flats on the sides of the bore.)

The observation about the paper shotcup patterns I can make, in comparing them to patterns shot from the same gun without the cups, is that the patterns appear to be more round, and the shot seems to be spread more evenly in a 30 inch circle.

If you don't want to push the shot out of the cup with a "base wad", ( that's what I call it), you can put a 24 gauge wad in the barrel before you load the paper cup. This will then push the entire cup and shot load out the barrel and act as a better sealer of gases behind the shot cup( it is paper, after all.)

I do both in my 12 gauge- a 12 gauge OS card down the barrel, and a `16 gauge wad on the inside of the paper cup.

WHY OS cards? Instead of cushion wads, or thicker, OP wads? I am trying to keep the cup as light in weight as possible, so it doesn't follow and "bump" the shot load after the shot is released from the cup. With the light weight OS cards, The cup falls away yards in front of the muzzle, rather than traveling more than 25 yards, as I have found cushion wads do. Doughnut hole patterns result.

I hope this helps. The .58 caliber( 24 gauge) smoothbore will make a nice, light weight(I hope) shotgun gauge for taking small game. Bob Spenser has some load data on his site- Black Powder notebook-- that you can use.

My experimenting came to a halt when I ran out of my limited supply of 16 gauge cards. I will pick up some more when I go to Friendship this year.

I am not sure that using these paper shot cups will produce as good a result as using Makeumsmoke's Fabriccups.
(http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/245826/post/847484/hl//fromsearch/1/#847484)

His method seems to be a lot more simple to do, and less work over a hot stove, than working with paper cups. Now, using wax paper cups, or dixie cups, or Ketch up cups, to form shotcups has some real possibilities for convenience. Carrying some wax paper squares, and a forming stick( or your finger, if its small enough to fit that bore size) of the right size so that you can make these up in the muzzle as you load your shotgun makes a lot more sense, than all the work I did with the Post-It note paper, even tho the cups I produced worked better than expected. :hmm: :idunno: :surrender: :thumbsup:

Based on the observations I made when trying to decide how may layers of Post-it Note paper I need to wrap around the mandrill, I am thinking that a single Reeses Peanut butter cup paper will not be tough enough to stay together, with the pellets rubbing it into the bore. I suspect 2 layers of even those wax paper cups will be needed to survive the trip up the barrel. But, I haven't worked with them, yet. It will make an interesting experiment to try. :hmm:

 

[tg]

"What is wasp nest wedding"

I guess it would be the Holy union of one wasp nest to another?

 

[Twice boom]

Protestant or catholic. :wink:
Twice.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Protestant or catholic. :wink:

Considering the participants, possibly animist?

Regards,
Joel

 

[paulvallandigham]

Someone with big fingers trying to type " Wasp NESTING". ie. the use of Hornet or wasp nest material as a filler or wad in their smooth bore. Wasps nests are fairly small, and not very thick. The material can be crushed and used as a filler, dribbled down the barrel as you might dribble pipe tobacco into the bowl of your pipe. If you don't smoke a pipe, ask a pipe smoker to show you how he does it. :surrender: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Twice boom]

So this wasp wedding:>) is mixed with the shot to act as a shot buffer or is it sprinkled over the shot to act as an over shot card..?
Thanks.
Twice.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

It is put on top of the powder, before the shot goes in . . . acts like a cushion.

Is this what they call a "shotgun wedding"? :rotf: