Pattern Density of Cylinder Bore

[luieb45]

I'm just asking out of curiosity because I've always wanted to know. I have a .56 smoothbore barrel for my renegade and have been told these barrels are fat enough that they can be bored out to .62. It's a 26 in. barrel. What kind of range could somebody expect for turkey hunting if they took time to try different loads, etc. Thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

I believe a majority, certainly a huge percentage, of turkey hunters use a .62cal.
In my experience with mine, a good turkey load in a .62cal cylinder bore will deliver a good reliable saturated pattern needed for the small vitals of a turkey head & neck out to a good 20 yards.

Check out this link...an excellent article and I used his recommendations for my own turkey hunting, works perfectly.
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

 

[luieb45]

That's what I figured it would be :shake:. I think if I ever use a muzzleloader for turkeys I'll need to get a jug choke because at the moment my turkey calling skills struggle to call them in at all. When I do they're usually 40-50 yards away. I think I'll stick to the 12 gauge pump on turkeys for now.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Louie: Before you spend more money, one way or another- a 20 gauge is minimum gauge for turkey in Illinois-- take a look at this post several months ago that produces much denser patterns from a cylinder bore shotgun.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/245826/post/847484/hl//fromsearch/1/#847484

If you scroll down the page, more information is shared by Capt. Fred, and Makesumsmoke as the discussion goes on.

Bill Martin( BillnPatti) subsequently did his own testing with his shotgun and fabric patches, using thicker, Mattress ticking fabric, and found he got much improved patterns, too. These fabric cups work properly because they are NOT folded over at the top, but are cut even with the muzzle. A standard OS card is placed on top of the shot just as if the cup was not present.

The Benefit of this idea is that it cleans and LUBES the bore as the shot load is run down the bore, then protects the bore from leading when the outer pellets would normally rub against the inside of the barrel. That keeps the lead shot MORE ROUND, rather than rubbing flats on some of the pellets, leaving them in the pattern. And, because the shot load flies a bit further before the fabric cup releases the shot, the patterns are tighter down range. Capt. Fred says his pattern was half the diameter at 20 yards that it is without the cup.

I don't believe its possible to get good 40 yard patterns, much less at longer distances, with the velocities you can achieve shooting black Powder. Black Powder makes these guns, choked or not, limited to about 40 yards, whereas some smokeless powder shotgun loads will give good patterns well beyond 50 yards. DO NOT EXPECT to get that kind of performance from any black powder shotgun. Hunt Closer. You have already demonstrated that you are capable of getting close to game. Stick with that game plan, and you will get plenty of game.Turkeys are called into decoys all the time, and shot inside 20 yards. 30 yards is probably a good average, and where you should plan to limit your shots with your BP shotgun for best results.


I had a good friend who once killed a pheasant at a paced-off 60 yards, in front of skilled shooters as his witnesses. When they cleaned the pheasant, they found ONE pellet had hit the bird in the back of the head! Not another pellet struck the bird. He laughed every time he heard someone claiming that they could kill pheasants with their shotgun out to 80 yards! Study any Edition of Lyman's Shotshell reloading manual, where they have posted tables on Muzzle velocities, and then followed the shot out to 20, 40 and 60 yards, then give you pellet energy at the various yards, and time of flight, and drop in flight for the distances.

None of the BP loads I shoot are as fast as the slowest Smokeless powder loads shown on the tables, but you can extrapolate information from the tables that will tell you what is happening to YOUR BP loads in flight. Take a look, for instance at the fastest MV shown for the shot size you want to use, and compare what happens to it in the first 20 yards with the slowest load of shot shown. Lyman's Black Powder Handbook, second edition, has some good loading information in it for you to use in deciding on a turkey load, and whether you need to have a choked barrel. :thumbsup:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The idea of head shooting turkeys with small pellets is a fairly recent concept made possible by advances in guns and shotshells. Old timers used larger pellets and shot for the body. I have some old shotshell catalogs from the 1950's and they recommend the same shot size for turkeys and geese, #4, #2 and BB. If I were hunting turkey with a cylinder bore I would load #4 shot and aim for the whole bird.

 

[Twice boom]

What is the concept to your thinking. What does it matter what you shoot the turkey with if you can not do it according to what was available to the hunter of the time period the gun you choose to hunt with represents. Why not shoot the turkey with a full choked pump gun.
I much rather see someone experiment with home made shot cups than have his gun jug choked ,then claim success with the ML when in fact nothing separates the ML from a modern gun other than the propellant used .. Seems counterfeit to me..

Twice

 

[BrownBear]

The idea of head shooting turkeys with small pellets is a fairly recent concept made possible by advances in guns and shotshells. Old timers used larger pellets and shot for the body. I have some old shotshell catalogs from the 1950's and they recommend the same shot size for turkeys and geese, #4, #2 and BB. If I were hunting turkey with a cylinder bore I would load #4 shot and aim for the whole bird.

I'm with you 100%. I cut my teeth on turkeys hunting with my granddad back in the 1950's, and he was serious as a heart attack about his turkey hunting. I was too young to pack a gun in his eyes, but he sure was generous enough to bring me along. Those days the big debate was between #2 and #4, with guys using BB kinda shunned like "sky busters" of the goose world. One neighbor actually hunted with #4 buck, but no one would go with him.

I don't recall my granddad ever taking more than one shot, ever losing a bird, or ever using anything smaller than #4. I still have some of his boxes of shells, and I'll call them his "vote" on the subject. They're all high base 1 1/4 oz #4.

 

[roundball]

I'm considering trying a PRB this coming turkey season...but it'll have to be if and after I get one first with the new .62cal smoothbore Virginia that has a Caywood Full Jug Choke in it.
We can't use "rifles" for turkey here in NC, but I have it in writing from the NC-WRC that there is no restriction on what is used out of a smoothbore muzzleloader so a PRB is in...definitely an interesting change of pace and new challenge to master in terms of where the vitals are located on that big bird...not where you'd think they would be.

 

[BrownBear]

...definitely an interesting change of pace and new challenge to master in terms of where the vitals are located on that big bird...not where you'd think they would be.

I'm repeating stories rather than talking from experience, but it's worth adding to your thought processes:

Friends live in turkey rifle country and use originals from late in the 19th century for a little added challenge and heritage. Their favorite shot is broadside right where the wings join the body. It misses the breast, but evidently really pins the birds to the spot when you hit them there, even if you don't quite hit the spine. They're serious in their pursuits and have been at a long time, so I tend to buy their opinion on such things.

 

[roundball]

Yes, studying the anatomy of a turkey, all the vitals ride pretty high up just under the "back" of the bird. Good PRB (or broadhead) POAs are:

Broadside = leading edge of wingroot and the ball gets the heart...or on top of the drum stick it gets the lungs;

Front = an inch or so above where the beard attaches, the ball will drive through the heart and on rearward through the lungs;

Rear = just above where the tail feathers attach, the ball ploughs through the lungs then the heart;

 

[luieb45]

If I were to hunt exactly like they did back in the day it would be illegal. There are stories in one of the county history books about "turkey hunters" going out at night with lanterns finding where the turkeys are roosting and shooting them out of the tree. I bet that's why the turkeys were all gone by 1900.

 

[roundball]

If I were to hunt exactly like they did back in the day it would be illegal. There are stories in one of the county history books about "turkey hunters" going out at night with lanterns finding where the turkeys are roosting and shooting them out of the tree. I bet that's why the turkeys were all gone by 1900.

Just to be clear...you can hunt anyway you like (as long as its legal of course, LOL)
All that any of us have are our own opinions and even those are at a specific point in time, which usually evolve and change over time as interests change, etc. The problems always start when others attempt to lord their chosen views on others, implying any way other than theirs is somehow inappropriate.

Your reference is to the odd post implying that making & using 'paper shot cups' is somehow OK where a jug choke makes success 'counterfeit' I believe the word was. Of the several things wrong with that position...one in particular begs this question:
Where is the official source documentation showing that "paper shot cups" were were commonly used for pattern control of bird shot 'back in the day' ?
Not interested in the old saw "they'd have made them if they had the paper and the idea to do it, etc, etc."...just interested in the official source establishing that paper shot cups were a commonly used form of bird shot pattern control in smoothbores back in the day.

In today's world of muzzleloading...no matter how traditional one might be trying to make it....the reality is there is only one absolute: Nobody precisely replicates 100% of everything that was commonly done back in the day.
And you need look no further than this example: If they did, there would be no modern made cushion wads and over shot cards being used...people would still be using hornet's nest material or leaves stuffed in as wads and cards, etc.

So individual's start the journey, start down that road gearing up and pursuing their interests as they see fit...if somebody wants to insist on hunting only using loads that contain an "eye of newt" or something, that's their thing...doesn't make them the judge & jury over anybody else.

:wink:

 

[BrownBear]

Outstanding post, roundball! Level-headed common sense. :hatsoff:

Along those lines I'm trying something that shows a lot of promise, Luie B, but for which I know of no clear documentation:

I'm using a piece of ticking to "patch" the shot charge just like you would a single round ball, rather than using some kind of flat wad by itself between shot and powder. Results are best so far if you go ahead and put a wad between the powder and patched shot charge, and with the patch I'm getting significantly smaller and denser patterns than with bare shot.

I'm lubing the ticking as for round balls, and of course putting an overshot card on top. The whole works is a PITA to use without some special tricks though. I'm making a tubular "short starter" for seating the patch before adding the shot, the idea being to go ahead and pour the shot charge while the starter is still in place and holding the patching as a "cup" to receive it. That will solve about 99% of the issues I've had so far.

How much tighter is it than I can manage with bare shot and a base wad? It's about like jumping one choke size. I'll let the statisticians count the holes, but things are looking good so far.

One serious bonus- When that patch flares open, it clearly retards the flight of a 1/2" cushion wad and prevents it from blowing through the shot column with larger powder charges. I'm thinking I might be able to speed up my loads a bit, which will be good for penetration, as well as for cutting leads on flying birds.

 

[Twice boom]

You think all did it that way. :rotf: . On a serious note I can see a Farmer or a fellow out of work that needed to feed his family doing it that way. Then again, I like to believe there were many in those days that were considered as sportsmen.. But if you want to emulate a guy with a modern breechloader while you play pretend its fine with me”¦ :thumbsup:

Twice.

 

[Twice boom]

I believe there are more than few on this board that readily admit if it was possible they would do it just like they did things 150-200 years ago. So I do not think your analogy applies here because there is nothing to prevent you from hunting with a gun as it was intended with out the modern discoveries known now to man kind”¦

You say you know not of any literature that the old timers experimented with shot cups. I don’t know of any either ,but I do have several books first additions from the mid 1840’s to the 1870’s that the sportsmen back the e experimented with their loads to make their guns more affective at different distances.. And while they were not aware of the choke as we know it today they were aware of the need for tighter patterns.

It’s not only counterfeit to have your Muzzle loader jug choked it is also hypocritical to boot when one voices opinions about unfairness that is associated with inline black powder shooting when he himself takes advantages of the spirit that most of us associate with ML and black powder shooting..
Where is the spirit of black powder shooting when one brags that he shot his turkey with a full choked muzzleloader and what does that teach the newbie. JMO.
Twice.

 

[BrownBear]

What a yawn. It's right for you so go for it with your own gear.

But by your reasoning a guy has to ride a horse to Virginia and buy a rifle from a Virginia gunsmith if he wants a Virginia rifle, and then he can't use it anywhere there's no historical documentation for a Virginia rifle being carried and used. Oh, and get the caliber right, or you're still counterfeit.

Better get rid of your Virginia rifles and use only North Carolina rifles by North Carolina gunsmiths roundball, cuzz otherwise you're counterfeit. :rotf:

 

[Twice boom]

What you say does not make sense since there were NC dudes hunting with Virginia rifles same as there were Virginia guys hunting with Ky made ones. But what does that have to do with hypocrisy .. Talk a bout a yawn.. I mean if you think jug chokes applies to you, then you should not gripe when you see guys in the woods with scoped inline rifles .
Twice.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Hunting with a muzzle-loader is a deliberate and self-conscious aesthetic decision, somewhat analogous to playing chess "promising not to use eight of the squares on the board." Thus, it is inherently different from what the vast majority of American frontiersmen did, no matter how hard we might try to replicate their methods. We are still looking backward, they were looking forward. Even if we end up looking at the same object, it has a completely different meaning.

Personally, I find nothing wrong with this. I enjoy the challenge and the eccentricity. And so, it becomes a matter of taste, and there's no arguing it.

 

[tg]

I see the main issue here as a sort of credibility thing, if a person talks about traditional guns and gear and makes claimes to using such for his hunting then using a jug choke or other method not relveant to the time of his gun then it is a missrepresentation of sorts and I am not saying all should or need to use all traditional gear or guns many production guns fall short in that respect but satisfy the needs of many, it is pretty much a case of being honest with ones self when decribing what and how one hunts with particular gear, I am seldom if ever completely PC/HC by todays acceptable definitions and few if any likely are but I have no interest in trying to use a modern concept and calling it something it is not for self gratification which can be the only reason for doing so, I would think the other path would be more rewarding. I have found a greater sense of accomplishment by giving up touch hole liners and ball boards, short starters and little things like that and getting closer to how things were done in the past, but not all care about such things and some like to make the claim with out the reality to back it which can be confusing for some starting out with more realistic/authentic goals.

 

[roundball]

What a yawn. It's right for you so go for it with your own gear.

But by your reasoning a guy has to ride a horse to Virginia and buy a rifle from a Virginia gunsmith if he wants a Virginia rifle, and then he can't use it anywhere there's no historical documentation for a Virginia rifle being carried and used. Oh, and get the caliber right, or you're still counterfeit.

Better get rid of your Virginia rifles and use only North Carolina rifles by North Carolina gunsmiths roundball, cuzz otherwise you're counterfeit. :rotf:

:grin:
Too old and too late to change them now!
:rotf:
Ya gotta love self proclaimed historians...like somebody bringing a knife to a gunfight.
What must they think about those who duck & goose hunt with muzzleloaders using modern hard plastic shot cups to prevent steel shot from destroying their bores when lawfully hunting waterfowl.

PS:
I still don't see any officially recognized sources identified that establish paper shot cups being commonly used for bird shot pattern control back in the day...or even around the mid 1800s when jug choking was invented...do you happen to know of any such sources??